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ARRRG!! First closed cell spray with new equipmet... Post New Topic | Post Reply

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quentin Posted: Nov 09, 2008 09:51 PM	ARRRG!! First closed cell spray with new equipmet... OK, did a church and Murphy seemed to be the pilot with big J riding along laughing. First was a wiring issue with the hose heater I got solved but had a heck of a time keeping pressures equal and a pattern. Usually the ISO side was running a much higher pressure and no fiddling with the temps or anything seemed to fully solve the problem. Also I couldn't keep a good pattern no matter how much I changed pressures or anything. Cleaned the tip constantly on my P2 running a 00 tip and manged to get the job done but I am not happy with the results though they seem OK with them. Any ideas since it is an A5 setup, 200 ft of hose? Maybe a bigger tip on the gun and who knows what for the pressure issue?
painter213 www.specialty-products.com Benny Abbott Phone: 205-717-0292 NACE Level III #7953 SSPC PCS # 2014-529-139 SSPC CCI Level II #64351 Posted: Nov 09, 2008 11:43 PM	With your ISO pressure running high, you have a restriction somewhere from the proportioner to the end of your gun. Start cleaning from your gun tip back to your proportioner. Could be stopped up screen in gun. Have you kept your material and equipment warm lately? Check your gun for a slight crossover as well. The restriction could also be in your whip. Where ever it is, it is on your ISO side.
quentin Posted: Nov 10, 2008 11:02 AM	I checked the gun and replaced the screens so will have to check the lines then. Maybe flush them with some diesel and then some solvent and see if that solves it.
clint moore Posted: Nov 10, 2008 12:25 PM	Just out of curiosity,why are you using a 00 tip?
quentin Posted: Nov 10, 2008 01:56 PM	That is what I got since being new at this it seemed best to start small from what I understood. I plan to go up in size pretty quick at this rate.
clint moore Posted: Nov 10, 2008 04:28 PM	Part of the problem is that the 00 is really small,the smallest,and for roofing you want at least an 02 or bigger,practice control of the pattern and over lap your passes,tie in the runs. There are many training classes that are 3-5 day long that teach spray foam roofing. This site advertises many of them. Check with the distributor that you got your equipment from,they should have offered you some basic training or recommended someone.
clint moore Posted: Nov 10, 2008 04:37 PM	Quentin,If you need any tech service call 1-888-920-1313,they should be able to help you or put you in touch with someone in your area.
quentin Posted: Nov 10, 2008 07:40 PM	I did get some training and it seems more time behind the gun and getting used to the equipment is the biggest issue. Also they train on Graco equipment and I have Glascraft so some differences that have a learning curve. Luckily the church was a metal structure and insulation not a roofing job. I plan to get training for roofing and do that too but that is a bit off at the moment unless this one estimate goes through right so I can afford the upgrades I will need to do it.
Posted: Nov 10, 2008 07:50 PM	I wouldn't spray anymore until you solve your pressure issue. How much of a difference are you talking about...20psi 50psi 100, 200...more?? When the A side is higher as someone else mentioned, that indicates a restriction on the A side, meaning you were spraying off ratio and B rich...not so good! I would try and 01 insert. The 00 is really small and I only use it for open cell. 01 should help open your pattern up and reduce the amount of cleaning you need to do. Foam has its learning curve, once you get some time behind the trigger it'll all make sense. Hopefully you bought your equipment and materials from someone you can call ANYTIME to get technical support. In my experience, no amount of savings in the beginning would have been worth losing the technical support I rely on today. My supplier came down on a Sunday to troubleshoot an issue with me, no question asked. Most guys won't even answer the phone after 5pm, and even fewer actually spray foam and can relate to the in-field issues. Tim
Linerman Posted: Nov 10, 2008 08:14 PM	I agree an 00 tip is way too small. You're allowed only to be off by 10% on ratio so if your A side is slightly higher I wouldn't worry about, however, how was the foam setting up? What did it look like?
quentin Posted: Nov 11, 2008 08:09 PM	One thing I will say, CPi has been very good in the support section. They were having an off weekend when I was spraying this time but that happens to every person and company so they get a pass on that one since every other question or time I have contacted them they have been there. I amj investigating a few ideas to what the problem is and I think I have it figured out finally but won't know until I can jump back on the problem hopefully tomorrow night. I still do some IT work on the side and when the Army Corps of Engineer who design and spec all the local federal buildings going up are the ones I will be doing the work for, I am jumpng on that one!
David Thacker Posted: Nov 13, 2008 10:45 AM	One thing that comes to my mind, are your gun screens. Graco and GlasCraft generally send their guns with 80 mesh screens. Over the years I have found that any debris that will go through a 40 mesh screen will also pass through an 00 tip. The 40 mesh screen could also help lessen fluid restrictions at the gun. Good luck
painter213 www.specialty-products.com Benny Abbott Phone: 205-717-0292 NACE Level III #7953 SSPC PCS # 2014-529-139 SSPC CCI Level II #64351 Posted: Nov 13, 2008 04:21 PM	One point is that the 00 module would not cause the problem unless it was partially blocked on one side. Yes it is a small module for the foam, but it should not cause a pressure im-balance. The point on the strainers are correct. If they are too small, then they will clog quickly. If it will pass thru the module, then let it pass.
SprayFoamSupply.com Posted: Nov 13, 2008 08:23 PM	What size mix chamber are you using with the 00 insert? Did you drill out the side of the mix chamber with the appropriate drill bit? George
clint moore Posted: Nov 14, 2008 09:32 AM	Only reason I asked why you were using a 00 tip is because of the application. I agree with most,check your gauges to see where your pressures are running off balance,High pressure side-check after proportioner,i.e. gun.Low pressure side- check before proportioner,i.e. inlet filters. Also check you temps.,this time of year you might have to increase them to balance out.
David Thacker Posted: Nov 14, 2008 06:21 PM	GREAT CALL Maxx. Quentin indicated that his issue was that his "A" side was high. I would put it this way; With the "A" side being higher, you either have an obstruction on the "A", after your materials pass through your proportioner, or on your "B" side before your materials pass through your proportioner. I have seen even a "new" drum pump have a leaky seal, allowing materials to very slowly weep past, enough to slowly cause a pressure imbalance.
Posted: Nov 15, 2008 09:53 AM	Hold on here. The most important question that needs to be asked is how much of an imbalance was there? If your spraying at 1,000-1200 psi, and the imbalance is 100-200 lbs,,,, don't worry about it. It should really boil down to how the cured foam looks. If its GOOD foam, ignore the gauges. Most B-sides are thicker than A-sides, so unless you warm the B-side drum up with a band heater to get the viscosity's closer, you will always be off on your pressures some what. Keep in mind, the transfer pumps job is to fill the pumps lower, the lower will only take on so much material, if both cavities are filled with equal amounts of material, then the amount of material coming out of the gun will always be the same. Another issue would be if your using a Reactor pump, it will shut off if the imbalance is to great. Heating the B-side with a band heater should solve that problem. Another thing, store your material in a controlled environment, never let the drums get below 60-70 ish, in the winter, using cold material out of the drum will drive you nuts.....
Posted: Nov 15, 2008 10:17 PM	100-200 off ratio is not acceptable. They should be close, if they aren't you have a problem. Take the time to find the problem, fix the problem and install on ratio. An experienced installer may be able to tell that he has good foam, but telling a newbie that being 100-200 off okay, isn't good advice. If you are that far off, you aren't making good foam. Tim
Posted: Nov 15, 2008 10:17 PM	100-200 off ratio is not acceptable. They should be close, if they aren't you have a problem. Take the time to find the problem, fix the problem and install on ratio. An experienced installer may be able to tell that he has good foam, but telling a newbie that being 100-200 off is okay, isn't good advice. If you are that far off, you aren't making good foam. Tim
quentin Posted: Nov 16, 2008 07:32 AM	OK, I think I have it fixed and plan to spray some foam to check but it was WAAAAAY off as far as pressure goes. Far enough that the A5 shut down a couple of times requiring me to bleed off extra pressure on the ISO side. Until I can get a bit to go out, fire it all up and check I am not 100% it is all fixed but I found a small leak in the poly side before the proportioner and some buildup on the iso side of the gun so both are pretty minor looking at them but the combination was a killer.
Posted: Nov 16, 2008 08:04 AM	Dude, if a 'newbie' can't tell what good foam looks like, he shouldnt be spraying foam. Being off ratio 100-200 lbs is Nothing to freak out about. It's the same advice you will get from Every chemist involved in spray foam. Your pressures reflect the back pressure on the pump, mostly caused by viscosity of the A and B side materials being different. Unless they are both the same, your pressure will be slightly different.
Posted: Nov 16, 2008 09:00 AM	I have to agree with the 'guru'. If your spraying foam, and do not know what good foam looks like, you should NOT be in the business. As for the pressure imbalance, 100-200 psi is nothing to worry about, every experienced applicator should know this fact. When you have different viscosity's you will have different pressure readings on the gauges. Fact....
Posted: Nov 16, 2008 09:09 AM	My point was that the original poster is new, this is one of his first jobs. He is not likely to know what good foam is vs. marginal foam. So it would be better to try and fix the problem than let his inexperience cause him issues due to off ratio foam. I don't agree that 100-200 is acceptable. Perhaps some foams are more forgiving than others. But I can tell you if I sprayed 100-200 b rich, it wouldn't be good foam. My gauges are always dead nut on. If that changes I look for a problem. Maybe my gauges are broken...hehe?? Thanks, Tim
Linerman Posted: Nov 16, 2008 05:42 PM	It doesn't take much to throw the ratio's off balance no matter how minor it may look.
quentin Posted: Nov 18, 2008 08:54 AM	OK, looks like it was an issue with the barrel temps. It was also the first cold snap of the year and I didn't get them heated enough so the ISO was flowing too thick to the A5. Adding more heat to the trailer to fix the issue and planning to put a small setup to just heat the barrels without wasting a ton for the entire trailer.
Linerman Posted: Nov 19, 2008 08:16 PM	Drum heating bands
quentin Posted: Nov 19, 2008 08:20 PM	Yup, on the list when I can afford them. Elections killed my financing as it was a buddy making good money doing work overseas for the government. He got his 2 week notice and is headed here to learn spraying with me while he works to get a different job there again since he loves it and the pay.
Bubba Pallo Posted: Jan 28, 2009 10:42 PM	FoamGuru you are on the money. You can be a few 100 pounds off and be spraying perfectly on ratio foam. On ratio is a volume measurement not a pressure measurement. The pressure imbalance is showing you it's taking more pressure on one side to deliver the same volume of fluid due to a difference in viscosity.
Dakotafoamboy Posted: Oct 26, 2016 06:10 PM	I realize this a really old post, but in most cases the b side has a higher viscosity which will normally show a slightly higher pressure on the b side. If you have slightly higher pressure on the a side then you have a problem in most cases. Now it doesn't necessarily have to be a plug in the a side. I personally have never had an a side plug. Most cases with issues I've had were b side supply. Either transfer pump issues, plugged screen or your transfer pump supply hose is too small. You need 3/4 inch hose minimum to pump high viscosity b side to the proportioner. It's not uncommon to have b side pressures running 100-150psi higher. The only foam I ever shot that had similar viscosities on both sides was USA Foam, but that company no longer exists. That stuff shot beautifully and I miss it.
Mnorthrup81 Posted: Jan 10, 2017 06:32 PM	A dancing pattern and off ratio chemical could definitely mean there is a blockage somewhere. It could also mean that there is an air pocket in one of the lines. This is usually caused by running out of chemical and letting the pumps run dry (jumping in the barrel). The only way resolve this issue is to either spray until it works it's way out. Which doesn't always work based on my experience. Or drain the hose back into the barrels multiple times. To do this, turn the pressure on and allow the machine to build up to your set point. Then close the air valves off on your pumps. Press the park button on the machine and crack the drain valves(recirculation valves) open to allow your hose to drain. Makes sure that the pressure on both liquid filled gauges drops to zero. Even after they hit zero, let it drain for a little longer. Then close your drain valves, open your pump valves, and turn the machine on again. You might have to repeat this process a few times until the pressure builds up equally on both gauges. Hope this helps