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Can closed cell an open cell mix Post New Topic | Post Reply

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dan pruglo Posted: Mar 22, 2011 12:44 PM	Can closed cell an open cell mix What would happen if you mix closed cell and open cell foam? And what would happen if I mixed the polyoll with 50% open cell and 50% closed cell?
Posted: Mar 22, 2011 07:36 PM	you would have clopen cell foam... come on give it a try an let us know how it goes..lol
jeff henderson Posted: Mar 22, 2011 09:10 PM	I believe you end up with a lawsuit...or at the very least a test of the warranty program that certified foam requires in Canada. Last course I took referred to a contractor that was under suspicion of having done this on one of his jobs - very very very bad foam was the result. Probably good for short term profits - just make sure the drywall gets up fast!
Daniel X Posted: Mar 22, 2011 09:49 PM	What a terrible idea. I feel bad for your customers if you're don't know any better than this.
dan pruglo Posted: Mar 22, 2011 10:14 PM	I wanna point out that A. It's for MY house B. I would never try screwing over a customer Those contractors who screw over people will burn in hell C. I have 4 drums, 6 pound closed cell, just wondering How to use up more for my attic
SprayFoamSupply.com Posted: Mar 22, 2011 11:10 PM	What happens when you mix open and closed cell foam? The surfactant is the ingredient in the foam resin that controls the size and properties of the bubbles in the foam as it reacts. Open cell foams have a surfactant that is designed to "overblow" the foam cell and crack or open it. Closed cell foams have less surfactant and it is designed to keep the cell wall closed. If you mix the open and closed cell foams together, you get extemely poor cell structure that is very course. This is because the 2 surfactants are working against each other. As the cells of the foam are terrible, the foam has a huge loss in R-value and could shrink or smell some time after application. Why do you have a 6lb foam? George
Daniel X Posted: Mar 22, 2011 11:47 PM	What do you expect to have, half open cells and half closed cells, a nice marble cell structure of the two and not a gooey mess?
dan pruglo Posted: Mar 22, 2011 11:48 PM	I bought some at a spa manufacture that went out of business, I have 2 more that are 12-14 pound Thank you for the advice kinda figured it wouldn't work good
Cory Boehs Posted: Mar 22, 2011 11:57 PM
Cory Boehs Posted: Mar 22, 2011 11:58 PM	I have some competition that would love to spray something like that for you. Seriously, how do we regulate this industry better? Someone is going to get hurt!
Posted: Mar 23, 2011 07:26 AM	respectfully ...non-rated foam... perfect for roofs and exterior use,,hot tubs & vessels,,, not intended for residential interior use,,, not a class 1 rated product,,, dont matter if it is your house (this is the stuff that will flash over like nobodys business,,,)
dan pruglo Posted: Mar 23, 2011 10:09 AM	Strangely enough it is fire rated, I've taken a torch to it
SPFer Posted: Mar 23, 2011 11:04 AM	Just because you take a torch to it doesn't make it fire rated. It's a bad idea to mix open and closed cell foams. Everyone on this post is telling you this, but you are obviously gonna do what you want. Have fun with it.
dan pruglo Posted: Mar 23, 2011 11:32 AM	funny i didnt say i will do it i asked what will happen, i have plenty of 2 pound to spray that IS class one fire rated i was just wondering what i can do with the other stuff, i cant throw it away! one thing ive noticed on these forums whenever someone has a wacky question everyone assumes the person is wacky , well the spray foam buisness got started BECAUSE someone had a wacky idea as with every new thing (curiosity is part of our nature) putting curiosity into practice now that is a whole different field.
dan pruglo Posted: Mar 23, 2011 11:37 AM	see i dont have any halp pound at the moment otherwise i would mix them together an see what happens, because i am curious its not like it will blow up, yall gotta relax.
jeff henderson Posted: Mar 23, 2011 07:34 PM	If it's any consolation, I thought you were just asking a question - didn't seem to me like you were threatening to hold a 'clopen' cell spring sale. (you're not, are you?)
Daniel X Posted: Mar 23, 2011 08:20 PM	All you're worried about is whether or not it will blow up? What about vapor permeance, density, cell structure, adhesion, cohesion, etc. etc. etc.
steven argus Posted: Mar 23, 2011 10:52 PM	Fixanything, I'm with you man, spray it!! We've dumped .5#, 2#, 1#, 1.2#, etc, whatever was hiding in the back of the shop. Mixed it up, maybe a cup sample if we were in the mood and sprayed it. Every spring we have done this. Call it spring cleaning. We spray it in the shop, in my buddy's shop, wherever. Never on a paying job where our reputation may suffer. (we save the real stinky, nasty stuff for the mother in law's house, LOL) I've only noticed slight shrinkage in our shop, not on an exterior wall though. My point is, as long as it is on your own building and you can tear it out if there is some sort of problem, go for it. Better than dumping it in the back yard.
Bryan Kwater Posted: Mar 23, 2011 11:00 PM	Is the high density foam what is recommended for the lower few feet of chicken barns? Seems I heard that somewhere before. What other uses for the high density foam is there?
Terrance Harris Posted: Mar 23, 2011 11:24 PM	Lot's of luck spraying mixed up non rated foam in your own shop or a buddy's shop. What about a fire? You or your buddy never going to sell your property? Think the insurance company is not coming after you? Too much liability and unsafe practices here.
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Mar 24, 2011 06:54 AM	I've seen the higher densities used on basement exteriors and you're correct about using it on chicken barns. Heck, I've even quoted using the higher density on roof situations. So, I would try to use it up on somethig that could use improvement but not too important. What about spraying it under a concrete slab? Got any going in anywhere sometime soon?
quentin Posted: Mar 24, 2011 09:12 AM	dl123, I feel sorry for your customers since obviously you think you know everything about foamand machines and have never had to ask a question. Do you run around calling them stupid and etc if they have a question too and act like a general ass towards them as much as you do people on this board? As for the actual question, instead of mixing, why not just spray the heavier foam first and then spray open over it? No mixing it then and it should actually work better. Of course that would mean spraying that open cell crap as dl123 would put it but I would see no problems doing that for my own shop.
Daniel X Posted: Mar 24, 2011 10:53 PM	I agree with Quentin on his last post... Why mix them all up when you could spray them at their proper densities, on top of each other if you must. Quentin most of my work is commercial, hence not wasting time installing foam that doesn't perform much better than glass and still requires a vapor barrier.
dan pruglo Posted: Mar 25, 2011 12:56 AM	I never actually planned spraying this " clopen" mix I just wanted to know what happens. I mean isn't that the point of forums to find out stuff from people. either other people mistakes or what they learned through out the years. I mean If I wanted to find out in practice that's what exactly I would do but I would rather not waste material pointlessly. Oh and thanks to all for the advice.
dan pruglo Posted: Mar 25, 2011 01:09 AM	Just curious if I take a torch to foam and it doesn't burn or "flash" then why wouldn't it be considered fire rated. I mean it don't burn at all, I get black foam but it doesn't catch fire. A while ago I had some foam in a aerosol can that said fire rated it was red foam, when I took a torch to it, well needless to say it burned better than a dry Christmas tree.
Posted: Mar 25, 2011 01:17 AM	welcome to the madness
quentin Posted: Mar 25, 2011 07:00 PM	YUP! It is insane how they rate foam. I keep some scrap around and burn it infront of clients showing that the requirements are there for a good reason but that it is not some super flamable product that makes the structure a death trap like the local glass and paper boys try to claim. Then again, can anyone explain how glass enclosed in a plastic bag can pass fire rating but foam needs covered?
Daniel X Posted: Mar 25, 2011 07:50 PM	I don't worry about it, my clients know about the rules, if there isn't drywall I spray thermal barrier over the foam.
Posted: Mar 26, 2011 07:06 AM	...brilliant,,, how bout,,, interior foams are a class 1 rated fire material.. these materials have a flame spread of 25 or less,,and a smoke developement of 450 or less,, (there are many oc formulations out there with fs of <20 and smokes of <250,,nice!!the cc's seem to smoke a bit more,,imagine that,,) the wood frameing members around the foam are a class 3 rated fire material,,, these maerials have a flame spread of ~100,,but typically a third less smoke,,, foam needs a sourse of combustion to burn/melt... once it is melting it makes some hellin smoke.. once the sourse of combustion is removed it quits burning (yes i know i cant say that,,waa) this is an organic material,,the smokes chemical compounds are similar to the burning timbers but in significantly higher concentrations,,,we are smart enough to get away from the heat and flame,,but the smoke will fill our airtight vessel,,,jim,,,you have 1.5 minutes from first flame to get-the-hell-out of any burning house,,??? is this the right number..peeps need to know???,,homes are all plastics/woods/adhesives and the smoke is what gets ya,,, then you smile at em and say,,,,harsh reality is,,if your house is on fire,,your house is on fire,,,foam or no foam,,,get out,,as quick as you can,, plastic bagged glass is not an ib or tb either,,, glass in plastic is for a vapor retarding package,,it is not fire rated assembly,,, it should say so on the facing,,,read it.. likewise,,,"fire-rated" poly isnt,,,ask the supplier for the supporting documents,,he wont have em and will send you to his supplier,,they wont have em either,, then a bag of bagels and a smile to mr local inspector in passing and say,,oh,,,by the way,...i been look for,,to keep the playing field level here ya know,,so were all doin the right thing,,,(kissybuttysmootchy)
Brad Smith Posted: Mar 26, 2011 12:19 PM	dl123 what products are you spraying over foam that meet canadian requirements?
quentin Posted: Mar 26, 2011 06:23 PM	Good idea on talk to those inspectors dude. They crawl all over me but are real quiet on a lot of local commercial builders doing up new open bays and etc for a bunch of car dealers here. Same with the local jails and etc that have the same system. I was looking at that wondering WTH was the deal and if it could pass.
Daniel X Posted: Mar 26, 2011 07:40 PM	It's not often, since we do mostly commercial and hardly run into any grey areas, but we use a spray applied mineral fibre similar to spray applied fire proofing for steel structure. That is on example, we use that in BC, Canada if we end up spraying an air seal along the intersection of a wall and corrugated steel decking, or if we spray a wall above a non-fire rated drop ceiling... few other areas too, but not often. Mostly spraying between steel studs, or z-bars, and onto fibre faced gypsum sheathing on most commercial up here.
Posted: Mar 27, 2011 05:44 AM	q:remind the inspectors the reason for the big white bags is so the condensation from the ineffective insulation system and the typically non/poorly ventilated metal building doesnt saturate the filterglass media and fall to the floor,,but instead,,is kept out of the filterglass media by the plastic bag,,brilliant...lets make a silk purse out of a sows ear,,,
quentin Posted: Mar 28, 2011 01:05 AM	Been digging up the info and rest on the bags. Interesting that if you read up on them, they will not pass the requirements. Must be nice to be a glass guy and not only avoid jumping through all the hoops of doing a rescheck on every project but even being able to use materials that won't cut the codes. Yeah, decided that my own county I live in is one I just won't work in anymore since the inspectors push too many hoops the other counties all around here don't require. Not a big market in this county anyways and it saves me raising prices for just here to cover all the extra time you have to spend on just doing a bid, much less the actual work.