Q&A Forums

Foam industry Spokesperson Post New Topic | Post Reply

Author	Comments
Jeffery Dieu Posted: Nov 21, 2006 10:19 PM	Foam industry Spokesperson Ok guys and gals, I am a current college student, and employed by a foam insulation contractor. After much thought and research im must say that not enough advertisment and promotion of the foam industry is going on. The cellulose guys have guys such as Doug Rye just promoting the hell out of the cellulose business. The are telling everyone through out the country that thats the way to go. Less cost better value, over foam. I naturally no better, but the average consumer doesnt. There are many myths and rumors about foam being spread, burns like cotton, rats love it, shrinks to nothing, absorbs water and will rot walls. Now with all this said do a little research yourself. Ask your suppliers what are they doing to educate the consumers about their product? My belief is we need our own "Doug Rye's" and a little more advertisment. What do you guys think?
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Nov 22, 2006 06:34 AM	Agreed. We also need a mascot. Maybe a natural predator of panthers (PINK ONES).
Ryan Rhoads Posted: Nov 22, 2006 07:30 PM	Well I agree with you. There are two other problems that must be overcome. One we have contractors out there lying through there teeth and doing a piss poor job and then the information that is out there isn't clear and consice. Where are all of the infrared pictures of a house with foam next to one with fiberglass and then one with cellulose. Where does it say that you will save X amount of heating fuel or electricity. Everything seems to point to percentages, but I read articles all the time of where somebody went in and caulked there windows and blew 10" of cellulose in the attic and saved 50%. Then you have the foam industry saying they will save you 50%. Well house 1 saved 50% by going with cellulose and was a lot cheaper. Well I do understand the context of the situation but most people don't. You save 50% compared to what?? Show me proof that I will save $1000 the first year if I foam instead of blow in fiberjunk or cellulose. Show me evidence of homes that have condensation on the bottom side of the roof deck in a vented attic. Show me the clear proof. I hired a guy to wade through the babble and proved something clear, He could not do it due to all the mixed information. In walls and ceilings magazine they recently wrote a story about the water transport through stucco in a cold climate like Minnesota. They used one set of american standards for a materials properties and found that you would get condensation within a wall cavity then they used another set and found that you wouldn't. In conclusion they stated that the best system incorporated a 2x6 wall with clsoed cell foam but a cheaper alternative that worked was to use a 2x4 wall with fiberglass and a smart vapor barrier. Now does this make any sense to anyone. Why not use a 2x4 wall with closed cell foam. Even utilizing a smart vapor barrier with fiberglass that moisture has to go some where, it DOES NOT just disappear. So where is it going into the attic where it soaks the cellulose or fiberglass insualtion, or does it just hang out in the house where it raises the humidity of the home as to promote mold growth everywhere. The foam industry needs to get on these people to make accurate and informed statements to the public. We all know that the fiberglass industry made sure that there product was written into the article in a favorable fashion. I think we should all band together and start posting these articles on this site and have everyone write to the editors. My only hesitation is that I do not wish to become one like the editors and tell them inaccurate information. But someone from the foam industry needs to insure correctness in these articles. P.S. If anyone does read that article and has ever had any experiance with the WUFI program, if you place a vapor barrier with any insulation you do not get condensation in the wall and the moisture content of foam is relatively high in the programs material properties. Also it shows moisture migrating through closed cell foam. These things I do not understand and have yet to find anyone who can explain this or how to get accurate dew point calculation out of the program without deleting the vapor barrier. If you show this to a customer with the vapor barrier it will tell him fiberglass is just as good as foam. If you show it to them without then he will ask why.
quentin Posted: Nov 23, 2006 11:23 AM	Another idea may be to get some of the bigger names in movies or etc to look at it since the bio foams are more friendly to the environment. If a couple of them were to find out that it is a MUCH better product, you may get some free advertising out of it. Also all the remodeling shows out there can be great exposure if anyone can get on one. The industry need to stand up though. The major manufactures of the products need to push better with more studies showing it is superior as well as promoting it much better. We see ads every day for the pink crap but how many have ever seen an ad for foam? The only way I even knew it existed beyond the cans of Great Stuff was an episode of This Old House a few years back and it was interesting but no real info on it was provided.
Melvin Chandler Posted: Nov 23, 2006 05:28 PM	I think now that BASF and Dow are starting to put more focus on the foam market, they will begin to put the dollars into advertising. They have it to spend. The two big dog open cell mfgrs will sit back and wait on the big dog corporations to do the marketing if not buy them out as well. I can't believe that a multimillion dollar manufacture is putting the burden of education of the general public on the contractors backs when the contractors are what pays the bills for the manufacturers. The more business the contractor has, the more he's buying from the manufacturer. The more the contractor is out educating the public rather than producing, the less products being used. I don't understand what these manufacturers are thinking. They must have some ceo's that pay more attention to the accountant to the marketing gurus.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Nov 23, 2006 09:41 PM	We have a spokesman. A good one. His name is Mason Knowles. As to the WUFI program, see Todd Harris from BASF for expert info. Also see Roger Morrison from NCFI for expert consultation on moisture vapor drive. Very bright individual. Honeywell is making a few movies about spray foam. Our spray rig was in one of them. I don't know where they will be shown. I do know that they didn't spend all that money for nothing. Good thoughts, keep `em coming. olger
Jeffery Dieu Posted: Nov 25, 2006 05:55 PM	I have done some research for this Mason Knowles. Maybe I wasnt looking in the right places but I didnt see anything showing where he was vouching for the foam industry. Just to let you know what I think a spokesperson should do: Work with utility companies, have a web site devoted to energy efficiency and the use of foam, speaking engagements in all 50 states, advertisment in many many many publications. Many times in Arkansas we here "Doug Rye said cellulose is as good if not better and less expensive". But Doug Rye gives this information nation wide, I have yet to see a single foam advertisment in any national publications, much less any articles on the use of foam. Is there any type of national organization of foam contractors and suppliers?
Posted: Nov 25, 2006 07:48 PM	try:SPRAYFOAM.ORG This is an organization of contractors and manufacturers. check it out. There are lots of articles such as the Superdome. 500,000 gallons of foam 2 1/2" thick over 9.7 acres of roof! (and i thought a 10,000 sq ft roof was a bunch of work!) by the way i am a University of Arkansas grad (1977 business degree) Razorback fan.They are ranked #5 However, they lost saturday to LSU, so that will drop to #13or so.(best guess) You gotta remember, foam is 3-4% of the market and fiberglass is 80%. Way more money to advertise with. We have the right to be proud of a superior product. Be gung-ho on this super insulation product. talk foam up. Speak highly of your competition. It is better for the competition to foam a house than to have it go fiberglass! That is one more house where the residents will save so much on gas bill(or electric) that you just may get a job down the road from that foamed house. it happens!
SprayFoamSupply.com Posted: Nov 25, 2006 08:05 PM	http://www.sprayfoam.org/ http://fourpointpub.com/sprayfoam/
Melvin Chandler Posted: Nov 26, 2006 09:56 AM	Who is Doug Rye and why haven't I ever heard of him? I too think someone needs to take the bull by the horns and do an all out public marketing attack. My customers don't read RSI, Professional Roofing or Metal Mag. I don't see any ads in home plan boods, Homes and Gardens, Southern Living etc. What I see the industry doing is marketing to the contractors and not to the end users. They are relying on us to brand the company, promote the product, educate the public etc. We'll do less than 6 figures this year with our foam business but we just completed our first wall foam job. The money for us is in the roofing market because nobody is educated on the foam insulation. I can't justify spending thousands of dollars on educating and branding on less than six figures of gross. Yet, the mfgrs are bringing in gross revenues of 8 and 9 figures and I can't even get them to send me marketing brochures without charging me for them. Crazy industry.
Posted: Nov 26, 2006 01:35 PM	I was wondering why most of the suppliers I spoke with recommended the foam insulation over roofing. I'm sure insulation is easier to learn and thier recommendation may be sincere. One major supplier stated that there aren't enough people like myself out there selling foam insulation. So yes, they are relying on YOU to sell thier product and they are trying to recruit new salesman. I'm beginning to see the light and will probably start looking more closely at roofing. It seems like insulation may be a side business. There is a contractor(ex-businessman with money) in my town though who has exclusive use of a certain .5lb foam who has three rigs running. I'm guessing it's because of the exclusive use that he's able to run the three. Another supplier was complaining that none of his contractors had multiple rigs. He also stated that thier company has about a dozen contractors in the state. Whereas the other company has much less. Well, quit flooding the market with contractors.
Melvin Chandler Posted: Nov 26, 2006 02:08 PM	They probably recommended foam insulation over roofing because of the incredible growth. Roofing is a steady market and good contractors in the roofing market can bring top dollars. I can clear much greater $$$ in the roofing market. I've already taken on two roofing jobs that are over $100,000.00 and I'm struggling to close foam insulation jobs are $10,000.00. My two roofing jobs will almost pay for my rig and investment. The foam jobs will barely pay the maintenance and the reason is because of lack of education by the CONSUMER. I'm going to keep roofing as my main business and do insulation on the side. My hot shot .5# foam supplier keeps telling me that I need to go full time with the foam but that would require a major expense and maybe some debt to advertise and educate and they aren't willing to help other than to fly in a guy to give a speech, maybe give me a sticker to put on the side of my rig, and set up in booths that I pay for to market only their material. Then they tell me that at some point they are going to require me to purchase another rig and double my volume or they will set up another dealer. That's probably the difference between the two. I would be guessing that you are talking about the "I" guys who appear to help build the business because they see the long range benefit. I could easily have multiple rigs if I had a supplier who was branding their product in my market and who was willing to spend some time and money with me to bust open my market.
Jeffery Dieu Posted: Nov 26, 2006 05:23 PM	Doug Rye is a nationally acclaimed speaker on building energy efficient homes. He happens to be headquartered here in Arkansas. Much of his work is down here in the south, but he works his cellulose is it magic all over the US. I am learning now that either the foam suppliers are content with their current market share, or just dont care if they grow. Any guys on here from Arkansas and I know you have heard the ole "Doug Rye said this........" and once again cellulose has prevailed. I think his web site is Dougrye.com, and I see him in many electric cooperative publications. Keep the info coming guys I love it!