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quentin Posted: Jan 25, 2011 09:16 AM	Foaming Attics Does anyone have good studies showing the ROI for home owners? Here the big thing are the massive high pitched roofs and I just can't justify spending all the money to do a sealed system but have been thinkin on trying to justify the ceilings or at least a couple of inches of closed cell or even 6 of open with blown in on top of that. This provides a good air seal for them while still having a vented system but I can't seem to find anything showing it is worth it to try and at least sell it.
John Shockney Posted: Jan 25, 2011 10:59 AM	Quentin Most of the studies that I have read show that if an adequate amount of cellulose (12-14inches well above the R-40mark) is blown onto a flat ceiling it will perform as well as any spray foam that we would install. With that said you then have to look at the whole structure with the complex roof and ceilings that we have in houses today sometimes blown in insulation isn’t the answer and sometimes it is the best choice. Also look at what is in the attic, is there any HVAC equipment or ducts in the space?? If you do the math spraying the roof on a 12:12 pitch only adds 20-25% to the amount of foam needed to do the ceiling, this wouldn’t stop most high-end homeowners from using foam on the right house. Make your recommendations based on what is best for the customer not what makes more profit for yourself. Always be the PROFESSIONAL it will pay better in the long run. Do what I’ve done and find a cellulose contractor that you can recommend for the jobs that need it and they will send work your way. If you believe in the product you should never have to “sell it” or what I really mean is “over sell it” spray foam’s performance should be demanded by your customers of all insulation products. Again always be the PRO and recommend the best product in the right places for your customer!! Thanks Airpro
quentin Posted: Jan 25, 2011 12:05 PM	Thanks! That is what I have been doing and unless it would be better for the customer, I have pushed them to the blown in instead. It surprises many when I point out that the cost effectiveness just isn't there for a large house with the massive pitch many have and tell them to just do a deep blown in since we don't do anything with that. I may lose some now but it seems to be coming back to me in a good reputation which works with my personal honesty beliefs in things. sleeping well at night knowing you did good work and the best for the client is better than making a bunch of money in my beliefs.
steven argus Posted: Jan 25, 2011 01:46 PM	Fellas! Fellas!! Did I just read that? The ground up and blown sunday newspapaper will perform just as good as SPF?!? How about 5 to 10 years down the road? We all know there is a dew point surface somewhere in the middle of the cellulose. What happens to wet cellulose? What happens when gravity takes over? Grab a handful of old cellulose and burn it, see what happens. We typically spray open cell in the attic, back side of the drywall and vent the roof. It certainly is not as cheap as cellulose, but I can tell you it outpreforms cellulose. How come you can blow newspaper all over reccessed cans? Try that with foam, even 4 inches of OC over a can, and the light starts tripping. I have alot of respect for Mr. Airpro and Mr. Quentin and this is probably the first time I have disagreed with you guys, but we are spray foam contractors, remember?
John Shockney Posted: Jan 25, 2011 02:38 PM	guiness It still depends on the customer I have removed the cellulose and sprayed 6inches of closed cell onto ceilings for some customers!! But I didn’t have to over sell the product foam is always the best choice but cellulose does work well if there is enough of it installed correctly and the customer knows the downfalls that more will have to be added over time. But it is still hard to beat cellulose at $0.60 per square foot installed 14inches thick that’s only $900 for a 1500 square foot home, I wouldn’t even crawl into an attic for that!! So the best thing is to understand our customer, give them the options and help them get the best insulation package they can. Most jobs we spray the underside of the roof because it only adds 10-29% compared to spraying down onto the ceiling and you don’t have to deal with the can lights. Thanks Airpro
quentin Posted: Jan 25, 2011 04:47 PM	Thanks Airpro! That is exactly the problem I look at. If they understand needing to add more and etc, the energy savings in comparison is just not enough for most places I go to. Unless they have a bunch of can lights, want a conditioned attic with HVAC all over the place in it or etc, I just can't see enough savings over blown paper. Fibeglass, heck yeah I can justify it but not paper.
SPFer Posted: Jan 25, 2011 07:23 PM	I agree that cellulose is a good product to use in certain circumstances, we install cellulose and foam. Of course, certain steps are required for a proper cellulose install... airsealing, boxing around recessed lights, etc. Hard to do it properly for $0.40/ sq ft.
Posted: Jan 25, 2011 08:38 PM	anything beyond a 4:12 we typically shoot 3-4 inch of oc down on the lid to complete the envelope...cap the can lites and fart fans with filterglass square and spray over these,,,continious foam shell,,then top with r40 of sumpin,,,blown fiber or cellulose,,whatever the customer wants.. seems roger m had a presentation on this last year..you know airpro..with the added cubic ft in the conditioned attic assembly's being added to the hvac's requirement it offset the savings of conditioned attic assembly in these tall attic assemblies...
SprayFoamSupply.com Posted: Jan 25, 2011 09:04 PM	I agree, it does not always make sense to spray the underside of the roof. If you have a 12 pitch roof and there is no AC dictwork up there, it does not make sense to spray the underside of the roof. Let's take a 20x20 attic space with a 12 pitch roof. Do the attic floor and there is 400 sq ft of area that is insulated and that has contact with the "outside". If you do the underside of the roof, you have about 566 sq ft of roof area and about 200 sq ft of gable wall area, about 766 sq ft of total area that is in contact with the outside. Yes, foam performs better per sq ft, but you are almost doubling the surface area that experiences heat loss. See link at left to Roger Morrison's article. George
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Jan 26, 2011 11:06 PM	Roger M.'s article is good but he missed one point. When you're dealing with an existing house that has poor or no ventilation and no good way to add ventilation without having the potential of Ice Damming, we suggest spraying the underside of the roof and eliminating all need for ventlaition. So, other tha that, it's a good article and I think everything is addressed adequately! Thanks for the link. Jim
ChrisIgna Posted: Feb 17, 2011 03:21 PM	Is everyone removing the existing fiberglass from the attic floor?
maurice richter Posted: Feb 18, 2011 08:08 PM	Guiness asked about years down the road. I can say from experience with my own house. 23 years ago I cellulosed my attics to 12" (and walls at a true 4") in our 100+ old farmhouse. We have been humidifying in winter, and installed AC about 8 years ago. Central Indiana gets near 100% humidity in summer. This evening I was re-wiring a light in a ceiling and dug thru the cellulose. It is still light, fluffy, and irritating to my nostrils. I admit I have not tried to burn a sample. (Y'all make a good point, I will test it.) I've also been up there in heat of summer, its dry too. Thanks for letting me study what's here!
maurice richter Posted: Feb 20, 2011 04:41 PM	And today I was in the attic re-wiring a 2nd light fixture, so I took a sample out to fire test it. If I hold a propane torch to it, it will burn with glowing edges, take the torch away and the burning stops, and smoke stops a few seconds later. Similar to that "great foam in a can" stuff at the hardware store. Is this also similar to burn patterns of CC or OC foam?

Author

Comments

quentin

Posted: Jan 25, 2011 09:16 AM

Foaming Attics

Does anyone have good studies showing the ROI for home owners? Here the big thing are the massive high pitched roofs and I just can't justify spending all the money to do a sealed system but have been thinkin on trying to justify the ceilings or at least a couple of inches of closed cell or even 6 of open with blown in on top of that. This provides a good air seal for them while still having a vented system but I can't seem to find anything showing it is worth it to try and at least sell it.

John Shockney

Posted: Jan 25, 2011 10:59 AM

Quentin

Most of the studies that I have read show that if an adequate amount of cellulose (12-14inches well above the R-40mark) is blown onto a flat ceiling it will perform as well as any spray foam that we would install.

With that said you then have to look at the whole structure with the complex roof and ceilings that we have in houses today sometimes blown in insulation isn’t the answer and sometimes it is the best choice. Also look at what is in the attic, is there any HVAC equipment or ducts in the space??

If you do the math spraying the roof on a 12:12 pitch only adds 20-25% to the amount of foam needed to do the ceiling, this wouldn’t stop most high-end homeowners from using foam on the right house.

Make your recommendations based on what is best for the customer not what makes more profit for yourself. Always be the PROFESSIONAL it will pay better in the long run. Do what I’ve done and find a cellulose contractor that you can recommend for the jobs that need it and they will send work your way.

If you believe in the product you should never have to “sell it” or what I really mean is “over sell it” spray foam’s performance should be demanded by your customers of all insulation products.

Again always be the PRO and recommend the best product in the right places for your customer!!

Thanks
Airpro

quentin

Posted: Jan 25, 2011 12:05 PM

Thanks! That is what I have been doing and unless it would be better for the customer, I have pushed them to the blown in instead. It surprises many when I point out that the cost effectiveness just isn't there for a large house with the massive pitch many have and tell them to just do a deep blown in since we don't do anything with that.

I may lose some now but it seems to be coming back to me in a good reputation which works with my personal honesty beliefs in things. sleeping well at night knowing you did good work and the best for the client is better than making a bunch of money in my beliefs.

steven argus

Posted: Jan 25, 2011 01:46 PM

Fellas! Fellas!! Did I just read that? The ground up and blown sunday newspapaper will perform just as good as SPF?!?

How about 5 to 10 years down the road? We all know there is a dew point surface somewhere in the middle of the cellulose. What happens to wet cellulose? What happens when gravity takes over? Grab a handful of old cellulose and burn it, see what happens.

We typically spray open cell in the attic, back side of the drywall and vent the roof. It certainly is not as cheap as cellulose, but I can tell you it outpreforms cellulose. How come you can blow newspaper all over reccessed cans? Try that with foam, even 4 inches of OC over a can, and the light starts tripping.

I have alot of respect for Mr. Airpro and Mr. Quentin and this is probably the first time I have disagreed with you guys, but we are spray foam contractors, remember?

John Shockney

Posted: Jan 25, 2011 02:38 PM

guiness

It still depends on the customer I have removed the cellulose and sprayed 6inches of closed cell onto ceilings for some customers!!

But I didn’t have to over sell the product foam is always the best choice but cellulose does work well if there is enough of it installed correctly and the customer knows the downfalls that more will have to be added over time.

But it is still hard to beat cellulose at $0.60 per square foot installed 14inches thick that’s only $900 for a 1500 square foot home, I wouldn’t even crawl into an attic for that!!

So the best thing is to understand our customer, give them the options and help them get the best insulation package they can. Most jobs we spray the underside of the roof because it only adds 10-29% compared to spraying down onto the ceiling and you don’t have to deal with the can lights.

Thanks
Airpro

quentin

Posted: Jan 25, 2011 04:47 PM

Thanks Airpro! That is exactly the problem I look at. If they understand needing to add more and etc, the energy savings in comparison is just not enough for most places I go to. Unless they have a bunch of can lights, want a conditioned attic with HVAC all over the place in it or etc, I just can't see enough savings over blown paper. Fibeglass, heck yeah I can justify it but not paper.

SPFer

Posted: Jan 25, 2011 07:23 PM

I agree that cellulose is a good product to use in certain circumstances, we install cellulose and foam. Of course, certain steps are required for a proper cellulose install... airsealing, boxing around recessed lights, etc. Hard to do it properly for $0.40/ sq ft.

Posted: Jan 25, 2011 08:38 PM

anything beyond a 4:12 we typically
shoot 3-4 inch of oc down on the lid to complete the envelope...cap the can lites and fart fans with filterglass square and spray over these,,,continious foam shell,,then top with r40 of sumpin,,,blown fiber or cellulose,,whatever the customer wants..
seems roger m had a presentation on this last year..you know airpro..with the added cubic ft in the conditioned attic assembly's being added to the hvac's requirement it offset the savings of conditioned attic assembly in these tall attic assemblies...

SprayFoamSupply.com

Posted: Jan 25, 2011 09:04 PM

I agree, it does not always make sense to spray the underside of the roof. If you have a 12 pitch roof and there is no AC dictwork up there, it does not make sense to spray the underside of the roof. Let's take a 20x20 attic space with a 12 pitch roof. Do the attic floor and there is 400 sq ft of area that is insulated and that has contact with the "outside". If you do the underside of the roof, you have about 566 sq ft of roof area and about 200 sq ft of gable wall area, about 766 sq ft of total area that is in contact with the outside. Yes, foam performs better per sq ft, but you are almost doubling the surface area that experiences heat loss. See link at left to Roger Morrison's article.

George

jimcoler

I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs.

I've expanded my knowledge into t

Posted: Jan 26, 2011 11:06 PM

Roger M.'s article is good but he missed one point. When you're dealing with an existing house that has poor or no ventilation and no good way to add ventilation without having the potential of Ice Damming, we suggest spraying the underside of the roof and eliminating all need for ventlaition.

So, other tha that, it's a good article and I think everything is addressed adequately!
Thanks for the link.
Jim

ChrisIgna

Posted: Feb 17, 2011 03:21 PM

Is everyone removing the existing fiberglass from the attic floor?

maurice richter

Posted: Feb 18, 2011 08:08 PM

Guiness asked about years down the road. I can say from experience with my own house. 23 years ago I cellulosed my attics to 12" (and walls at a true 4") in our 100+ old farmhouse. We have been humidifying in winter, and installed AC about 8 years ago. Central Indiana gets near 100% humidity in summer. This evening I was re-wiring a light in a ceiling and dug thru the cellulose. It is still light, fluffy, and irritating to my nostrils. I admit I have not tried to burn a sample. (Y'all make a good point, I will test it.) I've also been up there in heat of summer, its dry too.

Thanks for letting me study what's here!

maurice richter

Posted: Feb 20, 2011 04:41 PM

And today I was in the attic re-wiring a 2nd light fixture, so I took a sample out to fire test it. If I hold a propane torch to it, it will burn with glowing edges, take the torch away and the burning stops, and smoke stops a few seconds later. Similar to that "great foam in a can" stuff at the hardware store. Is this also similar to burn patterns of CC or OC foam?

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