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Author	Comments
Circle-D Posted: Apr 03, 2007 08:54 AM	How close to estimate Do you folks get so accurate on your estimates to deduct for the studs?. I've been asked this question by potential customers. Theorectically 8 studs wide would equal a square foot. So far I haven't figured anything this close. Am I estimating to high by not doing this? Skip
Posted: Apr 03, 2007 11:17 AM	Customers dont take into consideration things like overspray, yield, production rates, etc. I really hate that question, but its not their fault. So i usually bid the job at a total price and then rebate for unused material (material cost only). We recently did a closed cell job that was bid for 3600.00 and the final bill was 3450.00, its only 150.00 but they felt good about it, and i used less material than i anticipated. A lot of jobs are impossible to calculate perfectly, so this method helps.
Arthur Gillis Posted: Apr 03, 2007 01:32 PM	If you go over on material do you ask the customer for more money??
Posted: Apr 03, 2007 02:16 PM	nope. when i estimate the job, i make sure my fixed number is a number that i can live with. I make it the cap on the job, i only adjust down for their benefit if my yield is better or my material estimate was too high. I base my initial estimate on a fixed bd ft price then i calculate my material and labor seperate. spraying a stairwell vs. spraying a basement wall will be different in labor. then i present them with the proposal and explain the material rebate if it doesnt require as much. Some irregular shaped jobs cant be easily calculated. So we agree on a rough estimate and then i charge based on the material used at the end. i think i chargeabout 200.00 per inch from my tank-gauge. (i break it down to the 1/8" - 25.00)
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Apr 03, 2007 08:58 PM	Deduct for studs? Never heard of anything so dumb. Sounds like a great way to sell your rig in 18-24 months. There's going to be lots of used rigs for sale one of these days as green (not enviro-green) foamers keep cutting their price. foam still good, olger
Circle-D Posted: Apr 03, 2007 09:16 PM	Sorry I'm so dumb Olger. If everyone had 24 years experience we wouldn't need this board, would we?
Posted: Apr 04, 2007 09:01 AM	Here's how it works. Some people who come into your market will not have a clue as to how business works. Many will only know what a paycheck is and have only heard the word PROFIT tossed around. Some will say "well I don't need as much as him to live on so I can charge less." These guys don't YET understand the effort and amount of money it takes to actually run a business. For example, contractor Greenhorn may not yet have a family. Next year contractor Greenhorn gets married and has a baby. Or, has a baby and then gets married...whatever...congratulations. Contractor Greenhorn will soon understand that his business may have to pay for MEDICAL insurance. If you haven't yet, check it out. But, contractor Greenhorn has already TRAINED his market as to what prices "should be" in his area. And this is serious business. The people in your area hiring out the work will learn what you teach them. If you teach them that they can get it for free than guess what? You will pay dearly while your competition if any, rides motorcycles, goes fishing, and goes to the races in his new RV. You on the other hand, will suffer. You have to be competitive but you don't know what competitive is if you don't know your local market and your competition. If you teach people in your area that you're a highly paid professional, they'll still piss you off but at least they'll pay you for it. Don't ruin your local market. Keep your prices PROFITable and if you don't know what profit is, there's a good book called "Markup and Profit a contractors guide" by Michael Stone. So how do I know this? At onetime I did not know my market. And without even knowing it, I was a greenhorn lowballer. After figuring out that my prices were low, I raised my prices 23% and nobody even blinked. BUT, I had to find all new customers because I had trained my market into believing that they could get it cheap. As a side note, if you think your service is expensive, ask some of the other trades what they're charging. If you don’t know, you would probably be suprised to know how much some non English speaking contractors are making in the construction industry. And they don’t even have the overhead or equipment that you might have! Unless they are convinced that you have mucho work for them, they will charge you top dollar. Just my .02 cents worth
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Apr 04, 2007 07:40 PM	Dear D: Lest you take that diagnosis personally, remember it was your "customers" who suggested that. It weren't about you. But anyhow, foam still good customer suggestions bad olger
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Apr 04, 2007 07:46 PM	Good points, SB. foam best, olger
philip mullins Posted: Apr 04, 2007 09:09 PM	hey sb, i get it,lol. i may be new to the foam game. but i have had my deck and pool buisness' for some time now. doing a good job is important. accurate bids are important. but, when after 14 years as a land surveyor i told my boss i was going to start my deck buisness full time, he gave me the best advice i ever got as is relative to owning my own buisness... HIRE A GOOD ACCOUNTANT! he will explain to you if you can afford to deduct for studs. or any other such probs/ questions you may have in the future. once you know where you are and where you need to be, well...the numbers dont lie.
Posted: Apr 05, 2007 09:20 AM	Hey troutkiller, I tried emailing you from this site and it got kicked back. I believe we may be in the same neighborhood. Just curious.
philip mullins Posted: Apr 10, 2007 07:29 PM	trout_killer2006@yahoo.com or info@deckandfence.net dropme a line

Author

Comments

Circle-D

Posted: Apr 03, 2007 08:54 AM

How close to estimate

Do you folks get so accurate on your estimates to deduct for the studs?. I've been asked this question by potential customers. Theorectically 8 studs wide would equal a square foot. So far I haven't figured anything this close. Am I estimating to high by not doing this? Skip

Posted: Apr 03, 2007 11:17 AM

Customers dont take into consideration things like overspray, yield, production rates, etc. I really hate that question, but its not their fault. So i usually bid the job at a total price and then rebate for unused material (material cost only). We recently did a closed cell job that was bid for 3600.00 and the final bill was 3450.00, its only 150.00 but they felt good about it, and i used less material than i anticipated.
A lot of jobs are impossible to calculate perfectly, so this method helps.

Arthur Gillis

Posted: Apr 03, 2007 01:32 PM

If you go over on material do you ask the customer for more money??

Posted: Apr 03, 2007 02:16 PM

nope. when i estimate the job, i make sure my fixed number is a number that i can live with. I make it the cap on the job, i only adjust down for their benefit if my yield is better or my material estimate was too high.

I base my initial estimate on a fixed bd ft price then i calculate my material and labor seperate. spraying a stairwell vs. spraying a basement wall will be different in labor. then i present them with the proposal and explain the material rebate if it doesnt require as much.

Some irregular shaped jobs cant be easily calculated. So we agree on a rough estimate and then i charge based on the material used at the end. i think i chargeabout 200.00 per inch from my tank-gauge. (i break it down to the 1/8" - 25.00)

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Apr 03, 2007 08:58 PM

Deduct for studs? Never heard of anything so dumb. Sounds like a great way to sell your rig in 18-24 months.

There's going to be lots of used rigs for sale one of these days as green (not enviro-green) foamers keep cutting their price.

foam still good,

olger

Circle-D

Posted: Apr 03, 2007 09:16 PM

Sorry I'm so dumb Olger. If everyone had 24 years experience we wouldn't need this board, would we?

Posted: Apr 04, 2007 09:01 AM

Here's how it works.

Some people who come into your market will not have a clue as to how business works. Many will only know what a paycheck is and have only heard the word PROFIT tossed around. Some will say "well I don't need as much as him to live on so I can charge less." These guys don't YET understand the effort and amount of money it takes to actually run a business.

For example, contractor Greenhorn may not yet have a family. Next year contractor Greenhorn gets married and has a baby. Or, has a baby and then gets married...whatever...congratulations. Contractor Greenhorn will soon understand that his business may have to pay for MEDICAL insurance. If you haven't yet, check it out.

But, contractor Greenhorn has already TRAINED his market as to what prices "should be" in his area. And this is serious business. The people in your area hiring out the work will learn what you teach them. If you teach them that they can get it for free than guess what? You will pay dearly while your competition if any, rides motorcycles, goes fishing, and goes to the races in his new RV. You on the other hand, will suffer.

You have to be competitive but you don't know what competitive is if you don't know your local market and your competition. If you teach people in your area that you're a highly paid professional, they'll still piss you off but at least they'll pay you for it. Don't ruin your local market. Keep your prices PROFITable and if you don't know what profit is, there's a good book called "Markup and Profit a contractors guide" by Michael Stone.

So how do I know this? At onetime I did not know my market. And without even knowing it, I was a greenhorn lowballer. After figuring out that my prices were low, I raised my prices 23% and nobody even blinked. BUT, I had to find all new customers because I had trained my market into believing that they could get it cheap.

As a side note, if you think your service is expensive, ask some of the other trades what they're charging. If you don’t know, you would probably be suprised to know how much some non English speaking contractors are making in the construction industry. And they don’t even have the overhead or equipment that you might have! Unless they are convinced that you have mucho work for them, they will charge you top dollar.

Just my .02 cents worth

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Apr 04, 2007 07:40 PM

Dear D: Lest you take that diagnosis personally, remember it was your "customers" who suggested that.

It weren't about you. But anyhow,

foam still good
customer suggestions bad

olger

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Apr 04, 2007 07:46 PM

Good points, SB.

foam best,

olger

philip mullins

Posted: Apr 04, 2007 09:09 PM

hey sb, i get it,lol. i may be new to the foam game. but i have had my deck and pool buisness' for some time now. doing a good job is important. accurate bids are important. but, when after 14 years as a land surveyor i told my boss i was going to start my deck buisness full time, he gave me the best advice i ever got as is relative to owning my own buisness... HIRE A GOOD ACCOUNTANT! he will explain to you if you can afford to deduct for studs. or any other such probs/ questions you may have in the future. once you know where you are and where you need to be, well...the numbers dont lie.

Posted: Apr 05, 2007 09:20 AM

Hey troutkiller,

I tried emailing you from this site and it got kicked back. I believe we may be in the same neighborhood. Just curious.

philip mullins

Posted: Apr 10, 2007 07:29 PM

trout_killer2006@yahoo.com

or

info@deckandfence.net

dropme a line

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