Insulation Building Envelopes | Ask Mason Knowles - SPF Consultant | Spray Foam Technical Questions and Answers | SprayFoam Magazine Q&A Forums

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Posted: Mar 24, 2008 08:21 PM	Insulation Building Envelopes Mason, I posted a comment there(open vs closed cell getting out of hand) would like your input on this situation. I would have posted it here, but it was already there...................................................... How should contractors find a competent well rounded Spray foam contractor for factual input?
mason Posted: Mar 25, 2008 07:16 AM	Go to masonknowles.com and read my article Learning the Difference Between 1/2 lb and 2 lb Density SPF Then call the various suppliers for a list of recommended contractors in your area. Ask them questions about both products and compare it to the answers you obtain from objective sources. At the same time, check out their references to determine if they perform quality work. . Some contractors install both open and close cell foam, others specialize in one or the other. Both products can be used effectively in buildings. The most important factor is finding a contractor who knows how to use it properly.
Posted: Mar 25, 2008 10:37 PM	Is there a rating system or a list? How do I find out who is competent and not just blowing smoke. This is a large expense, an oops i hired the wrong guy, would really suck
Tim O'Keefe Posted: Mar 25, 2008 11:17 PM	Ask for references. Of course there is no list. You have to find out from the people they have done work for in the past to find out the kind of work they do! Tim Granite State Spray Foam Co.
mason Posted: Mar 26, 2008 11:40 AM	I am looking into providing a contractor evaluation service that would check references, training, type of equipment, suppliers, type of services, locations and area of expertise. But at present it is in the planning stages. It would require a subscription from the contractor (or their supplier)to perform the initial work and then a renewal fee to maintain an up to date data base. Is anyone out there interested in this potential service? What would a reasonable fee be for such a service?
Terry Adams Posted: Mar 26, 2008 09:58 PM	I would. Cost, I think could be determined by how much weight could put behind being certified. Testing should be considered, that way contractors would be required to learn about closed cell and open cell and hopefully will quit spreading myths. Someway to revoke their certification for cause too. It dosen't need to be like the BBB where you pay a fee and become a member, it has to be something that requires effort to get and keep. Suppliers beware your day is coming too.
mason Posted: Mar 28, 2008 07:57 AM	This service would not be a certification but rather a listing of services, training, equipment, size, location, references etc. It would be a snapshot of the company with no rating or certification. The consumer would draw their own conclusions based on the data provided. The contractors would fill out an assessment form, provide documentation on specific items plus 10 references. I would check the references according to a punch list of items and the documentation on training programs,licenses, certifications, supplier credentials, awards, organizational activity etc.
mason Posted: Mar 29, 2008 10:03 AM	Terry, Part of the evaluation would be what type of training the contractor and their employees have. For example, SPFA has 6 accreditation courses for full company or individual acccredited status, CUFCA has a certification process required in Candada to spray foam. The Air Barriers Association also has a certification process and dozens of suppliers have their own training programs. My service would list the courses, training taken, who took it and what it entails. It would be updated annually in order for the company to be listed in the data base (to account for new employees, new services, etc.) I believe the service would cost around $750 to $1000 per company the first time around and maybe around $500 for a renewal. A lot would depend on how long it takes to confirm the infirmation provided. I could even include for an extra fee, onsite evaluations to further determine the capabilities of the company. I believe the best way to describe the listing would be a company profile. A snapshot in time of the company. A few of my supplier cllients have been provided my check list and are using it for their in-house use. This service would open it up to everyone, contractors and suppliers. The consumer could log on to my website for a listing of the contractors and their company profile. For right now the plan is still in the brainstorming stages, but could get implemented within a month or two depending of my market research on the viability of the service. Contact me at masonknowles@aol.com if you would like to discuss further.
philip mullins Posted: Mar 29, 2008 10:30 PM	justcurious. ur right, it is getting out of hand. in the residential market both products, when applied correctly, are equaly good insulators. so good in fact that it is very hard to find a product that works even half as well. one is more affordable while the other offers features beyond just insulation/airbarrier. yes, either one can be used wrong, but thier both great to have. i think most applicators who spray just one or the other are mostly franchise type outfits or just behind the curve. and i think that as a contractor you will have to chose a spf installer much the same way you would a plumber, or an electrician, or even a fiberglass guy. by reputation, price, and by a little product knowledge on ur part. i wouldnt be looking to the "industry" for the kind of guidance ur seeking. believe me, the suppliers need the evaluations just as much as the installers. most of the contreversies out thier (ie open/closed) are from guys saying and doing what thier suppliers tell them. and the suppliers are flooding the market with uninformed, over "trained", inexperienced expert installers. i know, that sounds bad for buisness. but its not. thiers a bigger picture. we have small buisness owners dealing with major chemical corporations. and they dont care about us no more than the big oil companies care about the indian couple that owns the gas station up the street. spf is gaining popularity rite now at a staggering rate because the product itself is needed. spf is a great solution to a major problem that society can no longer afford to ignore. the only thing currently holding back the industry is the expense of the product v/s the expense of not having it. so lets flood the industry with installers. they will either figure it out or fail. who cares? BUT, the ones who do figure it out will promote the product, by themselves.will sell the product, by themselves. will install the product, by themselves. and will effectively warranty the product,... and as the market gets more competetive they will have to lower thier prices. thats where the real profits come from. cause now foam is even more affordable. and the chemicals dont get any cheaper. things will change though. cause to make it in this biz you have to be a crafty sumbitch to at least some level. and we will eventualy figure out that we have to band together and form a union of some sort. and when our rep has too put down his 5 iron to call me back cause now its me and a thousand of my brothers that want him to do his job thats good for us. and when a guy shows you his union card you know that he will perform because he is accountable. or, our suppliers will decide that if we complain too much that this is a job that americans dont want and set up a school in mexico. then they can bus in installers for 6 bucks an hour like some do concrete finshers, framers, roofers, drywall hangers and painters.
Posted: Apr 01, 2008 11:52 PM	Thanks for the insight. Do most of you here work together? You seem to very helpful of each other. Most contractors I spoke with just bad mouthed each other. as a consumer I/WE HATE THIS

Author

Comments

Posted: Mar 24, 2008 08:21 PM

Insulation Building Envelopes

Mason, I posted a comment there(open vs closed cell getting out of hand) would like your input on this situation. I would have posted it here, but it was already there...................................................... How should contractors find a competent well rounded Spray foam contractor for factual input?

mason

Posted: Mar 25, 2008 07:16 AM

Go to masonknowles.com and read my article Learning the Difference Between 1/2 lb and 2 lb Density SPF

Then call the various suppliers for a list of recommended contractors in your area. Ask them questions about both products and compare it to the answers you obtain from objective sources.
At the same time, check out their references to determine if they perform quality work.
.

Some contractors install both open and close cell foam, others specialize in one or the other.

Both products can be used effectively in buildings. The most important factor is finding a contractor who knows how to use it properly.

Posted: Mar 25, 2008 10:37 PM

Is there a rating system or a list? How do I find out who is competent and not just blowing smoke. This is a large expense, an oops i hired the wrong guy, would really suck

Tim O'Keefe

Posted: Mar 25, 2008 11:17 PM

Ask for references. Of course there is no list. You have to find out from the people they have done work for in the past to find out the kind of work they do!

Tim
Granite State Spray Foam Co.

mason

Posted: Mar 26, 2008 11:40 AM

I am looking into providing a contractor evaluation service that would check references, training, type of equipment, suppliers, type of services, locations and area of expertise. But at present it is in the planning stages.

It would require a subscription from the contractor (or their supplier)to perform the initial work and then a renewal fee to maintain an up to date data base.

Is anyone out there interested in this potential service? What would a reasonable fee be for such a service?

Terry Adams

Posted: Mar 26, 2008 09:58 PM

I would. Cost, I think could be determined by how much weight could put behind being certified. Testing should be considered, that way contractors would be required to learn about closed cell and open cell and hopefully will quit spreading myths. Someway to revoke their certification for cause too. It dosen't need to be like the BBB where you pay a fee and become a member, it has to be something that requires effort to get and keep.
Suppliers beware your day is coming too.

mason

Posted: Mar 28, 2008 07:57 AM

This service would not be a certification but rather a listing of services, training, equipment, size, location, references etc. It would be a snapshot of the company with no rating or certification. The consumer would draw their own conclusions based on the data provided.

The contractors would fill out an assessment form, provide documentation on specific items plus 10 references. I would check the references according to a punch list of items and the documentation on training programs,licenses, certifications, supplier credentials, awards, organizational activity etc.

mason

Posted: Mar 29, 2008 10:03 AM

Terry,

Part of the evaluation would be what type of training the contractor and their employees have. For example, SPFA has 6 accreditation courses for full company or individual acccredited status, CUFCA has a certification process required in Candada to spray foam. The Air Barriers Association also has a certification process and dozens of suppliers have their own training programs. My service would list the courses, training taken, who took it and what it entails. It would be updated annually in order for the company to be listed in the data base (to account for new employees, new services, etc.)

I believe the service would cost around $750 to $1000 per company the first time around and maybe around $500 for a renewal. A lot would depend on how long it takes to confirm the infirmation provided.

I could even include for an extra fee, onsite evaluations to further determine the capabilities of the company.

I believe the best way to describe the listing would be a company profile. A snapshot in time of the company.

A few of my supplier cllients have been provided my check list and are using it for their in-house use. This service would open it up to everyone, contractors and suppliers. The consumer could log on to my website for a listing of the contractors and their company profile.

For right now the plan is still in the brainstorming stages, but could get implemented within a month or two depending of my market research on the viability of the service.

Contact me at masonknowles@aol.com if you would like to discuss further.

philip mullins

Posted: Mar 29, 2008 10:30 PM

justcurious. ur right, it is getting out of hand. in the residential market both products, when applied correctly, are equaly good insulators. so good in fact that it is very hard to find a product that works even half as well. one is more affordable while the other offers features beyond just insulation/airbarrier. yes, either one can be used wrong, but thier both great to have.

i think most applicators who spray just one or the other are mostly franchise type outfits or just behind the curve.

and i think that as a contractor you will have to chose a spf installer much the same way you would a plumber, or an electrician, or even a fiberglass guy. by reputation, price, and by a little product knowledge on ur part.

i wouldnt be looking to the "industry" for the kind of guidance ur seeking. believe me, the suppliers need the evaluations just as much as the installers. most of the contreversies out thier (ie open/closed) are from guys saying and doing what thier suppliers tell them. and the suppliers are flooding the market with uninformed, over "trained", inexperienced expert installers. i know, that sounds bad for buisness. but its not.

thiers a bigger picture. we have small buisness owners dealing with major chemical corporations. and they dont care about us no more than the big oil companies care about the indian couple that owns the gas station up the street. spf is gaining popularity rite now at a staggering rate because the product itself is needed. spf is a great solution to a major problem that society can no longer afford to ignore. the only thing currently holding back the industry is the expense of the product v/s the expense of not having it. so lets flood the industry with installers. they will either figure it out or fail. who cares? BUT, the ones who do figure it out will promote the product, by themselves.will sell the product, by themselves. will install the product, by themselves. and will effectively warranty the product,... and as the market gets more competetive they will have to lower thier prices. thats where the real profits come from. cause now foam is even more affordable. and the chemicals dont get any cheaper.

things will change though. cause to make it in this biz you have to be a crafty sumbitch to at least some level. and we will eventualy figure out that we have to band together and form a union of some sort. and when our rep has too put down his 5 iron to call me back cause now its me and a thousand of my brothers that want him to do his job thats good for us. and when a guy shows you his union card you know that he will perform because he is accountable. or, our suppliers will decide that if we complain too much that this is a job that americans dont want and set up a school in mexico. then they can bus in installers for 6 bucks an hour like some do concrete finshers, framers, roofers, drywall hangers and painters.

Posted: Apr 01, 2008 11:52 PM

Thanks for the insight. Do most of you here work together? You seem to very helpful of each other. Most contractors I spoke with just bad mouthed each other. as a consumer I/WE HATE THIS

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