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Gerry Wagoner Posted: Sep 06, 2009 11:02 AM	Interesting discovery... We had a project awarded to us at a hospital on Dayton last week - to spray foam on a concrete block wall. Pretty simple. Just as quick - we lost the project because we weren't ABAA certified. Huh? We were spraying foam 17-years before ABAA even existed. I hate to see nuisance middlemen like this elbow their way into our industry amd make our foam - not better - but much more complicated. The certification is costly, and cumbersome. Where was SPFA when this middleman was becoming a tumor in the foam industry? I would much rather answer to the SPFA than to a self -proclaimed foam "expert" who knows very little about foam, save what they have read out of a book. Rant over. Keep the trigger pulled. `oG
Posted: Sep 06, 2009 09:53 PM	uh,,ger,,middle man my booty,, this was formed by the players in the industry,,the big names,,,some time ago when it became apparrent the direction of closed cell foam in the building market,, there are many parallels to the current "ignition barrier" horseturd this is to protect their preferred vendors.,,
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Sep 07, 2009 07:18 PM	Thanks Marko. drat, og
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Sep 07, 2009 09:49 PM	We've lost a coe cert we couple for this reason too. When you look into the cert processfor ABAA, we could all meet it with a class and paying the dues accrediation fees training fees, etc. It's just another group capitalizing on how SPFA hasn't historically done well at training and promoting their certifications. So, $3000-$5000 later in fees, we can get those jobs - but is it worth it? I know of a couple of copetitors out there who got the certification a couple of years ago, but didn't renew it because of the costs, but are still promoting their certification within the process. It will burn the in the long run. Jim
richard sucher II Posted: Sep 08, 2009 10:28 AM	Am looking at job that requires ABAA certification. Is there anyone out there that is ABAA certified? If so, can you speak to the process of getting spray work inspected by ABAA. Depending on size of job, work has to be inspected and certified as compliant by ABAA technical staff. How has this staff been to work with. Also, under normal circumstances, passing adhesion tests appear to be doable. When it gets cold, have any of you ABAA contractors had problems with passing adhesion tests at either foam wall board and/or metal studding for instance. What equipment are you using to conduct your adhesion tests as required by ABAA standards. Thanks for response.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Sep 08, 2009 12:01 PM	It sounds like a large regulatory hassle to me. og
Posted: Sep 08, 2009 08:42 PM	To be a spray foam roofer, I need to be certified by the Manafacturer (BASF Certified among the many)to apply Neogard Urethane Coating, I need to be certified by the Manafacturer. To do state and parish work, I need to be SPFA Certified and to do US Goverment work, I need to be Alpha Certified. If I had all of this time to run around for 3-4 day courses, I wouldn't be spraying foam for a living. Every time my supplier changes Manafacturers, I have to be certified by the new Manafacturer if I haven't been already. Every time an Architect writes up a Guideline Spec, they take it from either the National Roofers Guideline, IBC Guidlines, SPFA Guidelines and or Alpha Certification Guidelines. Each or very close to being similar, but they are different in one way or another. There should be one standard that everyone has to go by, not 10-15. And what the heck is ABAA? How many days do I need to go to class to get certified?
Bryan Kwater Posted: Sep 18, 2009 12:17 PM	ABAA is getting spec'd on quite a few jobs up here. Big scam as far as I'm concerned. When I bid a commercial job, I have to go over the specs with a fine tooth comb to make sure that they aren't requiring the contractor to belong to the ABAA. Some require it, others just require the ABAA do testing of all the foam sprayed. Most small jobs that require ABAA membership, we just pass on. If there's a large enough project to make it worth joining, we just figure in all the extra costs. Haven't gotten any yet, so we still aren't a member which doesn't hurt my feelings.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Sep 21, 2009 06:50 PM	10-4 on the "scam." oG
Dan Beecher Posted: Sep 21, 2009 10:37 PM	It's nice the ABAA just "discovered" what us "old timers" have known for 20 + years. What a frickin joke.
Posted: Sep 22, 2009 05:31 AM	..as previously mentioned,, these are big playa's in the cc spf market who formed this group...nice folks too!! it is interesting that there is no "rebuttal" from some member or officer to substantiate their existence to us hillbilly foamers.... but maybe...like the Rock says "it doesnt matter what you think"... their "aaba spec's" being specified is no different than the manufacturers who wine and dine the architects to get their product specified.....
Melvin Chandler Posted: Oct 15, 2009 08:55 PM	Is there really much of an advantage of joining the SPFA? I've been thinking about joining just to get credentialed for state work since there are only a handful in our state that are members and credentialed. I've seen a few things I didn't like out of the SPFA and just dislike joining associations that benefit the big guys rather than the guys that are trying to make it.
Tim Wojnarski Posted: Oct 16, 2009 08:32 AM	Yeah, they crop up in my area to. For those contractors that are ABAA certified and the manufacturers (last time I checked, it was only 2 for SPF) it's great. For everyone else, not so much. Limits the bidders list nicely for those that are certified. However, legit ABAA jobs, at least here, are few and far between. Most are ABAA look-a-like jobs that go something like this. The architect gets sold a bill of goods that an ABAA is the correct way to foam a building. In their defense, if done by their spec's, it's a darn good system. However, that is usually the end of it. So now an "ABAA spec" hits the street and it scares the GC, sub-contractors and suppliers enough where they see it as gospel and that's the only way this job is going to go. An official ABAA certificate is sent in the submittal package along with one of the two approved SPF products. It gets a rubber stamp from the architect and that's the end of ABAA discussions. There's no third party inspections, no-one checking to see if the actual guys on site are ABAA trained and no babysitting on the job. But, the architect and the owner both feel good about it because they have an "official" ABAA job. Sound familiar to anyone? Bottom line is if you want one of these jobs bad enough, you can fight for them. Or better yet, have one of your manufacturer reps get into the architect or owner's office to fight for you, they live for stuff like that. Great thread guys, thanks for getting my blood flowing this morning.
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Oct 17, 2009 01:20 PM	Newby, Yes there is an advantage of joining SPFA - It's to take it back from the big guys and the manufacturers who have kind of overthrown it to date. Don't get me wrong because I joined for one year and felt like I got nothing out of it other than a discount to the SPFA conference - which almost paid for the membership fees. After that year, I refused to become a member on the grounds that they didn't represent me and were working in the interests of the manufacturers. SInce then, I've learned that they are currently working in the interest of the manufacturers because that's who is active in the their membership activities. The manufacturers are the ones attending the meetings and voting on the direction of the SPFA. Since the ICC-ES AC377 hearing I realized that the only way to influence the system and make a difference at this point is by being involved in the SPFA. So, I joined last June and have become involved, but I can't do it alone. We need more installers involved i the SPFA activities!!! So, If we get more installers who are more involved with the SPFA and voting members, then it again becomes our industry voice. Let's face it, the SPFA is who the ICC and other regulatory bodies listen to. They aren't going to listen to you or me indivdiually - no matter how much common sense we make or how many facts we have. So, Yes, there is a benefit and I hate to say this but you need to spend the money and get involved on the committees and vote on the issues so we can take back our organization! tHE annual fee is a small price to pay to take back our industry. Hope to hear from you on the committees!! Jim Coler
quentin Posted: Nov 03, 2009 01:20 AM	I gave up on anythign involving the ABAA after looking at the requirements. Most of the jobs I have seen pretty much are speced out so that only one countractor or two in a several state area can do them and of course want to bet there is some kickback going on there? In the end it means they charge a lot more, the customer pays out the rear and gets no real benifits from it. Of course the SPFA isn't getting much better anymore either. I refused to renew with the latest issues going on with them since they won't even bother fighting the ABAA on this BS after I contacted them over a year ago about it after losing several jobs from it.
clint moore Posted: Nov 03, 2009 11:31 AM	It's kind of like a race that only involves Chevys. If you have a Ford,you can't race. Closed specifications have gone on for a long time in the single ply industry. A manufactuer or distributor will get a architech or owner to put out a bid that requires that only certain materials are to be used. This narrows the bid to only those who qualify and the manufactuer and distributor win no matter who gets the job because they use their material. Just like in any bid process they must allow fair competition. I.E. minority groups,disable parties,etc. no matter the spec.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Nov 03, 2009 01:43 PM	(sound of hammer hitting nail on head), oG
quentin Posted: Nov 06, 2009 02:08 AM	Heck, I am a service disabled vet and it is a joke trying to get those jobs. My poor rig sat for MONTHS until recently and of course sitting means Murphy gets involved. Need to get things going and STAY going so I can drop this IT crap I am doing and hate!
Posted: Nov 08, 2009 04:46 AM	you got it maxx,, take a second,,, read who the board of directors are,,, if you dont recognize who they work for,,, take a second to see just how they earn their daily bread,,,,and walla.... a self fullfilling prophesy... ...if your rigs ...been sittin long,,, ,,,your marketing plan,,, ,,,could just be wrong,,, burma shave
Posted: Nov 08, 2009 04:46 AM	...
quentin Posted: Nov 15, 2009 05:35 PM	In a catch 22. No jobs mean no money but need money to advertise better. Working on some ideas and etc. In the mean time at least starting to get some work again since people are thinking about winter and energy bills.