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Posted: Sep 05, 2009 10:15 PM	Intumescent Coatings Hi Mason I was listening on the radio today to a local remodeling show and the host mentioned to a caller requesting information on spray foam the following: There are several manafacturers that make open cell that do not need an ignition barrier? Is this true and if so, who are the manafacturers?
mason Posted: Sep 06, 2009 10:11 AM	At the present time (until Dec 31, 2009). There are at least 6 SPF manufacturers (both closed cell and open cell) that have evaluation reports that allow bare foam in attics under specific conditions. You can check out which ones at ICC Evaluation Services website. From my memory, they are Icynene, NCFI, Demilec, Arnette, Bio Based Insulation, Urethane Soy. There may be others I don't recall. However these evaluation reports will sunset Dec 31, 2009 and new testing would be required to obtain the same exemptions for ignition barriers. Check out the information on the earlier posts that were made on this subject for more details.
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Sep 07, 2009 09:56 PM	Mason, I'm amazed that you're portrayed as the expert in this forum, but you continue to provide false information even after you've been corrected. The Sunset date is JUNE 1st, 2010!!!!!!!! Anyone who was at the ICC-ES Code hearing in ALabama would agree and it was recorded as such! They even repeated it multiple times and clarified it for many people immediately following the ruling. I'm going to again make a request on behalf of all of us who read or contribute to this site, and that request is: To stick to the known true facts and do not make statements in a way that sounds factual when they are not proven! False statements states as fact are what confuse everyone and hurts our industry. This is what the Fiberglass industry wants - confusion and strife within our own industry. Let's not give them any more opportunities to attept to discredit us and stick only to the known facts! Thanks, Jim
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Sep 08, 2009 07:59 PM	I'm not sure where you're puuling those dates from but when you search for AC 377 on sprayfoammagazine.com, this is the first site that comes up. It's clear on the dates and the sunset criteria. www.sprayfoammagazine.com/npps/print.cfm?nppage=269&tfn= The new test became part of AC 377 immediately. Until June of 2010, either Appendix A or X can be used. After December 31, 2010, Appendix A 1.2 will sunset (be removed), leaving only Appendix X. Additionally, ICC-ES has established the following sunset schedule for attic and crawlspace test data and ESR updates: As of June 1, 2009, ICC-ES will no longer accept test data based on the '3/12' interim criteria or Appendix B (per decision during the ICC-ES June 2008 hearing) As of December 31, 2009, ICC-ES evaluation reports (ESRs) that use test methods that are based on either a crawlspace comparative test in which the baseline test was kraft-faced fiberglass or a crawlspace test with the "3/12" conditions of acceptance, will be modified to delete the section(s) of the report that are based on this testing. On June 1, 2010, the testing requirements described in Section A1.2.2 will expire, and ICC-ES will no longer accept ESR applications using this test data after that date. ESR's written to this standard will be valid until December 31, 2010. All applicable evaluation reports will be revised by December 31, 2010 to delete assemblies based on this testing. Report holders can submit data from new test methods (A1.2.1 or Appendix X) to attain compliance with the new standard.
Posted: Sep 08, 2009 08:33 PM	We just did our first job with a Intumescent Coating and it is a messy pain in the arse. We are use to spraying all types of coating from Acryllics & Silicones to Urethanes and Polyurea and we had fun with the Ignition Barrier. Spraying straight up in the air, taping off all of our pearlings and just trying to spray foam was tough. We applied 2" of Closed cell to the roofline of a metal R Panel Building and then followed up with the Ignition Barrier turning a 2 day job into a 4 day job by the time we were finished. Am I the only one taping off pearlings to minimize the amount of coating used or is everyone else just spraying everything and factoring the coating cost in. Paint everywhere, it was definately fun. Maybe we will get better as time goes on! P.S. Have fun spraying in someones attic and getting paint on the Christmas decorations that the drop cloth pulled off from because the coating stuck to the bottom of your shoes and Suzie Homemaker is pssed.
mason Posted: Sep 09, 2009 12:06 PM	Jim, As I stated earlier the information and dates were copied directly from the SPFA and the ICC ES websites. I have asked both groups for clarification.
mason Posted: Sep 09, 2009 12:58 PM	JIm, I went to the link you provided and copied and pasted this from the article (by the way the article is the same one on the SPFA website) "Additionally, ICC-ES has established the following sunset schedule for attic and crawlspace test data and ESR updates: As of June 1, 2009, ICC-ES will no longer accept test data based on the '3/12' interim criteria or Appendix B (per decision during the ICC-ES June 2008 hearing) As of December 31, 2009, ICC-ES evaluation reports (ESRs) that use test methods that are based on either a crawlspace comparative test in which the baseline test was kraft-faced fiberglass or a crawlspace test with the "3/12" conditions of acceptance, will be modified to delete the section(s) of the report that are based on this testing. On June 1, 2010, the testing requirements described in Section A1.2.2 will expire, and ICC-ES will no longer accept ESR applications using this test data after that date. ESR's written to this standard will be valid until December 31, 2010. All applicable evaluation reports will be revised by December 31, 2010 to delete assemblies based on this testing. Report holders can submit data from new test methods (A1.2.1 or Appendix X) to attain compliance with the new standard" The dates and the text that I provided is the document you referenced. I was not at the meeting and perhaps what you say is correct. But, neither the ICC ES website or the articles contradict what I have provided in the forum.
mason Posted: Sep 10, 2009 08:27 AM	I received from Rick Duncan, Technical Director of SPFA a copy of a presentation that he is giving at the annual POlyurethane conference in October. In the report he has a table that provides the dates the various test procedures are valid for. He confirmed those dates with ICC Evaluation Services. According to the table, evaluation reports based on the SWRI attic and crawl space test using kraft faced fiberglass will be sunseted Jan 1, 2010. So, my facts were correct, the last date those specific evaluation reports are effective is Dec 31, 2009.
Michael Fusco Posted: Sep 11, 2009 05:31 PM	Yep....and companies with ESR reports that expire after Dec 2009 will no longer present them to code officials.....yep....especially if SPFA says so....Yep.....and if ICC-ES changes an already issued ESR which expires after 12/09, I'm sure they will offer a refund pro rated on the time they just took back...yep....jury is still out on this one.

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Comments

Posted: Sep 05, 2009 10:15 PM

Intumescent Coatings

Hi Mason

I was listening on the radio today to a local remodeling show and the host mentioned to a caller requesting information on spray foam the following:

There are several manafacturers that make open cell that do not need an ignition barrier?

Is this true and if so, who are the manafacturers?

mason

Posted: Sep 06, 2009 10:11 AM

At the present time (until Dec 31, 2009). There are at least 6 SPF manufacturers (both closed cell and open cell) that have evaluation reports that allow bare foam in attics under specific conditions. You can check out which ones at ICC Evaluation Services website. From my memory, they are Icynene, NCFI, Demilec, Arnette, Bio Based Insulation, Urethane Soy. There may be others I don't recall.

However these evaluation reports will sunset Dec 31, 2009 and new testing would be required to obtain the same exemptions for ignition barriers.

Check out the information on the earlier posts that were made on this subject for more details.

jimcoler

I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs.

I've expanded my knowledge into t

Posted: Sep 07, 2009 09:56 PM

Mason,
I'm amazed that you're portrayed as the expert in this forum, but you continue to provide false information even after you've been corrected. The Sunset date is JUNE 1st, 2010!!!!!!!! Anyone who was at the ICC-ES Code hearing in ALabama would agree and it was recorded as such! They even repeated it multiple times and clarified it for many people immediately following the ruling.

I'm going to again make a request on behalf of all of us who read or contribute to this site, and that request is:
To stick to the known true facts and do not make statements in a way that sounds factual when they are not proven!

False statements states as fact are what confuse everyone and hurts our industry. This is what the Fiberglass industry wants - confusion and strife within our own industry. Let's not give them any more opportunities to attept to discredit us and stick only to the known facts!
Thanks,
Jim

jimcoler

I've expanded my knowledge into t

Posted: Sep 08, 2009 07:59 PM

I'm not sure where you're puuling those dates from but when you search for AC 377 on sprayfoammagazine.com, this is the first site that comes up. It's clear on the dates and the sunset criteria.

www.sprayfoammagazine.com/npps/print.cfm?nppage=269&tfn=

The new test became part of AC 377 immediately. Until June of 2010, either Appendix A or X can be used. After December 31, 2010, Appendix A 1.2 will sunset (be removed), leaving only Appendix X.

Additionally, ICC-ES has established the following sunset schedule for attic and crawlspace test data and ESR updates:

As of June 1, 2009, ICC-ES will no longer accept test data based on the '3/12' interim criteria or Appendix B (per decision during the ICC-ES June 2008 hearing)

As of December 31, 2009, ICC-ES evaluation reports (ESRs) that use test methods that are based on either a crawlspace comparative test in which the baseline test was kraft-faced fiberglass or a crawlspace test with the "3/12" conditions of acceptance, will be modified to delete the section(s) of the report that are based on this testing.

On June 1, 2010, the testing requirements described in Section A1.2.2 will expire, and ICC-ES will no longer accept ESR applications using this test data after that date. ESR's written to this standard will be valid until December 31, 2010. All applicable evaluation reports will be revised by December 31, 2010 to delete assemblies based on this testing. Report holders can submit data from new test methods (A1.2.1 or Appendix X) to attain compliance with the new standard.

Posted: Sep 08, 2009 08:33 PM

We just did our first job with a Intumescent Coating and it is a messy pain in the arse.

We are use to spraying all types of coating from Acryllics & Silicones to Urethanes and Polyurea and we had fun with the Ignition Barrier.

Spraying straight up in the air, taping off all of our pearlings and just trying to spray foam was tough.

We applied 2" of Closed cell to the roofline of a metal R Panel Building and then followed up with the Ignition Barrier turning a 2 day job into a 4 day job by the time we were finished.

Am I the only one taping off pearlings to minimize the amount of coating used or is everyone else just spraying everything and factoring the coating cost in.

Paint everywhere, it was definately fun.

Maybe we will get better as time goes on!

P.S. Have fun spraying in someones attic and getting paint on the Christmas decorations that the drop cloth pulled off from because the coating stuck to the bottom of your shoes and Suzie Homemaker is pssed.

mason

Posted: Sep 09, 2009 12:06 PM

Jim,

As I stated earlier the information and dates were copied directly from the SPFA and the ICC ES websites. I have asked both groups for clarification.

mason

Posted: Sep 09, 2009 12:58 PM

JIm,

I went to the link you provided and copied and pasted this from the article (by the way the article is the same one on the SPFA website)

"Additionally, ICC-ES has established the following sunset schedule for attic and crawlspace test data and ESR updates:

As of June 1, 2009, ICC-ES will no longer accept test data based on the '3/12' interim criteria or Appendix B (per decision during the ICC-ES June 2008 hearing)

As of December 31, 2009, ICC-ES evaluation reports (ESRs) that use test methods that are based on either a crawlspace comparative test in which the baseline test was kraft-faced fiberglass or a crawlspace test with the "3/12" conditions of acceptance, will be modified to delete the section(s) of the report that are based on this testing.

On June 1, 2010, the testing requirements described in Section A1.2.2 will expire, and ICC-ES will no longer accept ESR applications using this test data after that date. ESR's written to this standard will be valid until December 31, 2010. All applicable evaluation reports will be revised by December 31, 2010 to delete assemblies based on this testing. Report holders can submit data from new test methods (A1.2.1 or Appendix X) to attain compliance with the new standard"

The dates and the text that I provided is the document you referenced. I was not at the meeting and perhaps what you say is correct. But, neither the ICC ES website or the articles contradict what I have provided in the forum.

mason

Posted: Sep 10, 2009 08:27 AM

I received from Rick Duncan, Technical Director of SPFA a copy of a presentation that he is giving at the annual POlyurethane conference in October. In the report he has a table that provides the dates the various test procedures are valid for. He confirmed those dates with ICC Evaluation Services. According to the table, evaluation reports based on the SWRI attic and crawl space test using kraft faced fiberglass will be sunseted Jan 1, 2010. So, my facts were correct, the last date those specific evaluation reports are effective is Dec 31, 2009.

Michael Fusco

Posted: Sep 11, 2009 05:31 PM

Yep....and companies with ESR reports that expire after Dec 2009 will no longer present them to code officials.....yep....especially if SPFA says so....Yep.....and if ICC-ES changes an already issued ESR which expires after 12/09, I'm sure they will offer a refund pro rated on the time they just took back...yep....jury is still out on this one.

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