Pulling Closed cell | Ask Mason Knowles - SPF Consultant | Spray Foam Technical Questions and Answers | SprayFoam Magazine Q&A Forums

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Posted: Sep 03, 2007 09:16 AM	Pulling Closed cell We sprayed a metal building on a very hot day, with what was supposed to be 2# foam. I think we were running around 120 degrees on A B and Hose. Everything went well, and the foam looked great. Fast forward two weeks, and we start getting customers calling that the foam is pulling. We go check it out, and it is really pulling. (Like about 6" to 7") Looks like we will need to respray some of the corners. Fast forward another two weeks, still pulling, and now it looks like it is starting to distort some of the metal. It looks like it has pushed some of the screws out. I need to cut some foam away and make sure it did not push it out when sprayed, but I don't think this is the case. The distortion came after about three weeks or so. We have come to find out that the manufacturer of the foam was messing with the weight of the foam. Trying to drop it to 1.7# or something like that. Was told that they figured out they had the problem, and started switching back to the straight 2#. I am not trying to bash anyone here, but we are going to have some unhappy customers here, and we will take care of them. Does anyone have any words of wisdom here?
mason Posted: Sep 03, 2007 09:39 AM	It sounds like you are doing the right thing. I've found if you address the problem immediately, keep the lawyers out of it and work with your supplier to correct the problem, that it is cheaper and less time wasted in the long run. As you are doing, the first responsibility is to satisfy your customer. Keep them in the loop. Let them know that the supplier has admitted a problem and is working with you to correct the situation. In these circumstances I've found that it is usually better to work tightly with your supplier to correct the problem They have admitted responsibility for the foam, which is good. I presume they will replace the foam in the building that is pulling away. They probably won't want to pay for your extra labor, but since you will have to spend extra labor, they may have other items that they can give you for your trouble ,such as extra material (the good stuff), deep discounts on equipment or parts or solid leads on new jobs. Good luck and keep spraying.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Sep 03, 2007 06:02 PM	I assume that the metal interior is not a galvanized surface. If so, that raises another possible issue.
Posted: Sep 03, 2007 08:11 PM	This was a normal Morton type pole barn. The metal panals are ribbed. I wondered if this allowed the foam to get in behind the perlin and then push it out. Problem is this did not happen when we sprayed it. It was three weeks later that they noticed that the metal was starting to bulge or buckle out. I am told that the screw heads are angled and maybe pushed out. Now when I say that this stuff shrank. I mean it really pulled up. In one of the corners it pulled away from the 6x6 about 6-7". I saw this at week 2, and was concerned at this point about the rest of the building having severe pressure on it. Now I think that all of the foam was under a severe pull. The foam looks good too. The customer is pretty understanding, but I don't want this kinda publicity. If I have to build him a new barn, then I guess we will have to call the insurance folks and get them involved. Just ticks me off that your suppose to be buying a product of certain quality, and you end up with something else, because they are trying to get more yeild. I don't have any real hope that they are going to step up and help me if it is more then the foam. Has anyone ever had a building pull like this before?
Luke Kujacznski Posted: Sep 03, 2007 08:47 PM	Yes, it was a bio based product. And it keep shrinling and spliting for over a month. It was due to the fact that the polyols that were used were the cheap ones. good luck and I hope your supplier is better then mine was.
Scott Snyder Posted: Sep 03, 2007 08:54 PM	Was this a 245 or water-blown closed cell? Been thinking about trying some water blown product since the 245 is a bear to work with here in TX during the summer months.
Craig Maturi Posted: Sep 04, 2007 06:22 AM	JP- i had this same problem with foam from a certain manufacturer, they replaced my foam with 12 month old foam also that was junk, terrible people to deal with. bad for our industry. write me please.
Posted: Sep 04, 2007 07:37 AM	This was a 245 foam. I hope they step up to the plate and help with this customer.
mason Posted: Sep 04, 2007 07:49 AM	Foampro, Contact me at masonknowles@aol.com to discuss. The more information I have the better I can address technical issues. As these comments demonstrate, there are new products out in the marketplace. Some work very well and others not so well. The responsible suppliers will assist you if there is a problem. However, sometimes many times the problem is in the application or how the material was stored or shipped to the job site. How does a supplier know when it is their material and when it is not? To help them sort it out and to protect yourself if a material problem arises, I have found keeping a daily job log to be invaluable. It doesn't take that long and is documentation that can be used to find out what happened and why? Things to record: Brand and product number of foam (or coating) Lot number Ambient and substrate temperature and humidty (morning, noon and afternoon) Type of Equipment, spraygun Settings: pressure, hose heat, primary heater Type of substrate and preparation, (record moisture content of wood and concrete) Also, record any anomolies, things that were different or strange from other applications, Note; the rise and set time of the foam, surface profile, yield, etc. All of this information can be placed on a single page each day and kept in your job log along with time sheets for each job. Years later, you can use this information to assist if something develops down the line. Keep spraying, protect yourself and support the good guys.

Author

Comments

Posted: Sep 03, 2007 09:16 AM

Pulling Closed cell

We sprayed a metal building on a very hot day, with what was supposed to be 2# foam. I think we were running around 120 degrees on A B and Hose.
Everything went well, and the foam looked great. Fast forward two weeks, and we start getting customers calling that the foam is pulling. We go check it out, and it is really pulling. (Like about 6" to 7") Looks like we will need to respray some of the corners. Fast forward another two weeks, still pulling, and now it looks like it is starting to distort some of the metal. It looks like it has pushed some of the screws out. I need to cut some foam away and make sure it did not push it out when sprayed, but I don't think this is the case. The distortion came after about three weeks or so.

We have come to find out that the manufacturer of the foam was messing with the weight of the foam. Trying to drop it to 1.7# or something like that. Was told that they figured out they had the problem, and started switching back to the straight 2#. I am not trying to bash anyone here, but we are going to have some unhappy customers here, and we will take care of them. Does anyone have any words of wisdom here?

mason

Posted: Sep 03, 2007 09:39 AM

It sounds like you are doing the right thing. I've found if you address the problem immediately, keep the lawyers out of it and work with your supplier to correct the problem, that it is cheaper and less time wasted in the long run.

As you are doing, the first responsibility is to satisfy your customer. Keep them in the loop. Let them know that the supplier has admitted a problem and is working with you to correct the situation.

In these circumstances I've found that it is usually better to work tightly with your supplier to correct the problem They have admitted responsibility for the foam, which is good.

I presume they will replace the foam in the building that is pulling away. They probably won't want to pay for your extra labor, but since you will have to spend extra labor, they may have other items that they can give you for your trouble ,such as extra material (the good stuff), deep discounts on equipment or parts or solid leads on new jobs.

Good luck and keep spraying.

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Sep 03, 2007 06:02 PM

I assume that the metal interior is not a galvanized surface. If so, that raises another possible issue.

Posted: Sep 03, 2007 08:11 PM

This was a normal Morton type pole barn. The metal panals are ribbed. I wondered if this allowed the foam to get in behind the perlin and then push it out. Problem is this did not happen when we sprayed it. It was three weeks later that they noticed that the metal was starting to bulge or buckle out. I am told that the screw heads are angled and maybe pushed out.
Now when I say that this stuff shrank. I mean it really pulled up. In one of the corners it pulled away from the 6x6 about 6-7". I saw this at week 2, and was concerned at this point about the rest of the building having severe pressure on it. Now I think that all of the foam was under a severe pull. The foam looks good too.
The customer is pretty understanding, but I don't want this kinda publicity. If I have to build him a new barn, then I guess we will have to call the insurance folks and get them involved.
Just ticks me off that your suppose to be buying a product of certain quality, and you end up with something else, because they are trying to get more yeild. I don't have any real hope that they are going to step up and help me if it is more then the foam.
Has anyone ever had a building pull like this before?

Luke Kujacznski

Posted: Sep 03, 2007 08:47 PM

Yes, it was a bio based product. And it keep shrinling and spliting for over a month. It was due to the fact that the polyols that were used were the cheap ones. good luck and I hope your supplier is better then mine was.

Scott Snyder

Posted: Sep 03, 2007 08:54 PM

Was this a 245 or water-blown closed cell? Been thinking about trying some water blown product since the 245 is a bear to work with here in TX during the summer months.

Craig Maturi

Posted: Sep 04, 2007 06:22 AM

JP- i had this same problem with foam from a certain manufacturer, they replaced my foam with 12 month old foam also that was junk, terrible people to deal with. bad for our industry. write me please.

Posted: Sep 04, 2007 07:37 AM

This was a 245 foam.
I hope they step up to the plate and help with this customer.

mason

Posted: Sep 04, 2007 07:49 AM

Foampro,

Contact me at masonknowles@aol.com to discuss. The more information I have the better I can address technical issues.

As these comments demonstrate, there are new products out in the marketplace. Some work very well and others not so well. The responsible suppliers will assist you if there is a problem.

However, sometimes many times the problem is in the application or how the material was stored or shipped to the job site. How does a supplier know when it is their material and when it is not?

To help them sort it out and to protect yourself if a material problem arises, I have found keeping a daily job log to be invaluable. It doesn't take that long and is documentation that can be used to find out what happened and why?

Things to record:
Brand and product number of foam (or coating)
Lot number
Ambient and substrate temperature and humidty (morning, noon and afternoon)
Type of Equipment, spraygun
Settings: pressure, hose heat, primary heater
Type of substrate and preparation, (record moisture content of wood and concrete)
Also, record any anomolies, things that were different or strange from other applications,

Note; the rise and set time of the foam, surface profile, yield, etc.

All of this information can be placed on a single page each day and kept in your job log along with time sheets for each job. Years later, you can use this information to assist if something develops down the line.

Keep spraying, protect yourself and support the good guys.

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