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Dennis Del Grosso Posted: Apr 26, 2011 03:59 PM	Return on Investment and Installation Questions Hello all and thanks for a great source of info. Have an ICF built home with walk-in attics that are insulated with batt on the attic floor. Attic is fully vented at soffit and ridge, AND there are CAN lights into the insulation from the main floor. Also, attached is an all metal garage building with 3" batt sandwiched between the purlins and sheet metal. Both house and garage are radiant in-floor heat, and A/C (when needed) is done by several mini-split units. Location is at 1800' elevation in N Adirondacks of NY - highs around 85, lows to -25, and VERY windy in winter. Here are some questions: For the house, with 8/12 pitch, two contractors have suggested spraying underside of roof - one with OC ICYNENE at 6" to 8.5" and one with CC (brand unknown so far) to 5" depth. I tend to like the CC, but wonder about leak detection should the roof leak. Is this a valid concern? Secondly, though I do not have ducts in the attic, would I gain insulation value through the Air barrier significant enough to warrant the cost and effort? For the metal garage building, depth of the CC foam is spec'd at 3", while depth of OC would be 5". As the 3" CC would not cover the metal purlins, would the remaining sandwiched batt material between the purlin and sheet-metal form enough of a thermal break? I would anticipate the CC foam to cover 60% of the side of the metal purlins. As we wash vehicles in the garage during winter, I feel the OC foam would allow moisture to permeate to the cold metal and form condensation. In the garage, the sidewalls are covered with OSB to a height of 10' - the current foil faced batt material is visible from there up and over the roof. I currently exprience LOTS of frost and dripping from the screws protruding from the room thru the metal purlins. As this is a retrofit, I will be doing the labor of cutting all the batt insulation out of the garage (40x48 building) AND opening up all access to house walk in attics (some tongue and groove board removal in catherdral ceiling) ANY and all helpo, suggestions, or pointers would be appreciated - wish I knew of SPF when I built the house!!! Thanks to all! Dennis DG
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Apr 26, 2011 08:54 PM	I know of the contractors you've asked to quote this and sometimes they do decent work. We actually come up there and can cover that area to some extent too. Our product is BioBased and we have both open cell and closed cell foams and will recommend what's best for your application. The Open Cell is a Class III vapor retarder at 3" thick and a Class II at over 8 inches thick. We will typically only use the closed cell foam in special applications where there is very high vapor drive conditions (ie. pool, hot tubs, sauna, walk in freezers, etc.). So, if you want another estimate, give me a call and I can come up and take a look at it and give you an estimate. Thanks, Jim
Dean Nash Posted: Apr 28, 2011 08:34 AM	I would have expected more to comment Dennis but I'll offer some morsels for thought. In the attic of your home, I'd say it's a toss up between OC & CC products though if the budget allows, go with CC. There are several other variables that I would recommend that you factor into your decision such as: tree canopy, orientation of the home, seasonal winds relative to the home, annual rains, roof type, HVAC design & load calculation, etc. Each can effect the performance of the chosen product if not accounted for regardless of compliance with code in my experience. Regarding roof leaks; there are (2) types of roofs, that which has a leak & that which hasn't leaked yet. In addition to that, manufacturers warranties on shingles are devalued the moment the pallet of material is delivered and drop from there seemingly in an exponential manner. Don't be swayed by the implied warranty. Finally, most leaks occur from poor installation, poorly or improperly installed flashing, lack of proper or prescribed nailing, and/or age. AND to close, I'd prefer to have my pending leak contained in the roof rather than find it months later in my bedroom, closet, or bathroom where the cost to repair includes both the roof and the room where the leak was found. Not to mention the probability of mold abatement. As to the garage, CC in my opinion is your best option for several reasons but certainly considering the interior car washing variable. Previous poster Jim Coler's offer is a good one and with his stewardship efforts and online activities as outwardly "public" as they are, I humbly suggest that his performance and quality of installation will be over & above the standard. Good luck Joe IME
Dennis Del Grosso Posted: Apr 28, 2011 10:57 AM	Thanks - excellent perspective on shingle warranty, AND the idea of a potential leak being confined to the roof only - We have no tree canopy (and in fact, I am intending to cut trees even further back from the house to prevent them falling on it--), home faces Southeast and is 1800' elevation above Lake Champlain (yep, the views ARE good!) Seasonal Winds CAN be incredible, and really is a major driving factor why I am considering this. Roof type is conventional dimensional shingle on house, and metal sheet on garage. There never was any HVAC design or load for the A/C - not sure what was done for the radiant in-floor thourhgout house and garage. I have contacted Mr Coler and we will be meeting for him to inspect and potentially quote on the job - One other item I had not mentioned yet is that the house is equipped with a Broan Guardian Plus GSHH3K Fresh Air and Heat Recovery Vent system. Appreciate any and all input - thanks very much for your time! Regards, DDG
quentin Posted: Apr 28, 2011 01:09 PM	Everything I have seen tells me to trust Jim. If I was having someone do my home and he was one of those bidding it, I would have zero issues trusting what he says and paying the extra for him if needed. We do our best to keep our prices down for people but we also make sure they understand you get what you pay for with some of these others outbidding us. It sucks to have to go in and fix things after them. BTW, the largest in our area was getting pretty much what they wanted with the local inspectors though I warned them 3 years ago they were doing it wrong. The inspectors made me jump a million hoops each job and kept saying that the big guy in business a lot longer knows their stuff. Well I bumped in to one who looked at the last job we will do in this county and he let me know that at least HE is seeing what I had been saying. Now people are having drywall bow and fall off because the inspectors refused to believe me that 1/2 of closed cell and then batts was going to create serious condensation issues in the winter. Now people are going to have to pretty much GUT their new homes and have it done RIGHT but they will not be using foam and they are badmouthing the foam instead of the idiots who are doing cheap installs the wrong way just to make that buck. Perfect example for you on remembering, cheap or being a huge guy with 10 crews does not mean they will do it right. So far it looks like you have been paying attention and doing a great job from what you described but just a reminder on looking at the contractor and double checking what they say.
Dennis Del Grosso Posted: Apr 28, 2011 08:56 PM	Thanks Sir - good advice. I learned early in life to do a lot of research and pose a lot of questions, and that cheaper is rarely better. Used to get me in grief all the time in the GOvt when I wanted to buy BEST VALUE vrs cheapest price. There IS a difference between PRICE and COST! Thanks

Author

Comments

Dennis Del Grosso

Posted: Apr 26, 2011 03:59 PM

Return on Investment and Installation Questions

Hello all and thanks for a great source of info. Have an ICF built home with walk-in attics that are insulated with batt on the attic floor. Attic is fully vented at soffit and ridge, AND there are CAN lights into the insulation from the main floor. Also, attached is an all metal garage building with 3" batt sandwiched between the purlins and sheet metal. Both house and garage are radiant in-floor heat, and A/C (when needed) is done by several mini-split units. Location is at 1800' elevation in N Adirondacks of NY - highs around 85, lows to -25, and VERY windy in winter.

Here are some questions:
For the house, with 8/12 pitch, two contractors have suggested spraying underside of roof - one with OC ICYNENE at 6" to 8.5" and one with CC (brand unknown so far) to 5" depth. I tend to like the CC, but wonder about leak detection should the roof leak. Is this a valid concern? Secondly, though I do not have ducts in the attic, would I gain insulation value through the Air barrier significant enough to warrant the cost and effort?
For the metal garage building, depth of the CC foam is spec'd at 3", while depth of OC would be 5". As the 3" CC would not cover the metal purlins, would the remaining sandwiched batt material between the purlin and sheet-metal form enough of a thermal break? I would anticipate the CC foam to cover 60% of the side of the metal purlins. As we wash vehicles in the garage during winter, I feel the OC foam would allow moisture to permeate to the cold metal and form condensation. In the garage, the sidewalls are covered with OSB to a height of 10' - the current foil faced batt material is visible from there up and over the roof. I currently exprience LOTS of frost and dripping from the screws protruding from the room thru the metal purlins.

As this is a retrofit, I will be doing the labor of cutting all the batt insulation out of the garage (40x48 building) AND opening up all access to house walk in attics (some tongue and groove board removal in catherdral ceiling)

ANY and all helpo, suggestions, or pointers would be appreciated - wish I knew of SPF when I built the house!!!
Thanks to all!
Dennis DG

jimcoler

I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs.

I've expanded my knowledge into t

Posted: Apr 26, 2011 08:54 PM

I know of the contractors you've asked to quote this and sometimes they do decent work. We actually come up there and can cover that area to some extent too. Our product is BioBased and we have both open cell and closed cell foams and will recommend what's best for your application. The Open Cell is a Class III vapor retarder at 3" thick and a Class II at over 8 inches thick. We will typically only use the closed cell foam in special applications where there is very high vapor drive conditions (ie. pool, hot tubs, sauna, walk in freezers, etc.).

So, if you want another estimate, give me a call and I can come up and take a look at it and give you an estimate.
Thanks,
Jim

Dean Nash

Posted: Apr 28, 2011 08:34 AM

I would have expected more to comment Dennis but I'll offer some morsels for thought.

In the attic of your home, I'd say it's a toss up between OC & CC products though if the budget allows, go with CC. There are several other variables that I would recommend that you factor into your decision such as: tree canopy, orientation of the home, seasonal winds relative to the home, annual rains, roof type, HVAC design & load calculation, etc. Each can effect the performance of the chosen product if not accounted for regardless of compliance with code in my experience.

Regarding roof leaks; there are (2) types of roofs, that which has a leak & that which hasn't leaked yet. In addition to that, manufacturers warranties on shingles are devalued the moment the pallet of material is delivered and drop from there seemingly in an exponential manner. Don't be swayed by the implied warranty. Finally, most leaks occur from poor installation, poorly or improperly installed flashing, lack of proper or prescribed nailing, and/or age. AND to close, I'd prefer to have my pending leak contained in the roof rather than find it months later in my bedroom, closet, or bathroom where the cost to repair includes both the roof and the room where the leak was found. Not to mention the probability of mold abatement.

As to the garage, CC in my opinion is your best option for several reasons but certainly considering the interior car washing variable.

Previous poster Jim Coler's offer is a good one and with his stewardship efforts and online activities as outwardly "public" as they are, I humbly suggest that his performance and quality of installation will be over & above the standard.

Good luck
Joe
IME

Dennis Del Grosso

Posted: Apr 28, 2011 10:57 AM

Thanks - excellent perspective on shingle warranty, AND the idea of a potential leak being confined to the roof only -
We have no tree canopy (and in fact, I am intending to cut trees even further back from the house to prevent them falling on it--), home faces Southeast and is 1800' elevation above Lake Champlain (yep, the views ARE good!) Seasonal Winds CAN be incredible, and really is a major driving factor why I am considering this. Roof type is conventional dimensional shingle on house, and metal sheet on garage. There never was any HVAC design or load for the A/C - not sure what was done for the radiant in-floor thourhgout house and garage.
I have contacted Mr Coler and we will be meeting for him to inspect and potentially quote on the job -
One other item I had not mentioned yet is that the house is equipped with a Broan Guardian Plus GSHH3K Fresh Air and Heat Recovery Vent system.

Appreciate any and all input - thanks very much for your time!
Regards,
DDG

quentin

Posted: Apr 28, 2011 01:09 PM

Everything I have seen tells me to trust Jim. If I was having someone do my home and he was one of those bidding it, I would have zero issues trusting what he says and paying the extra for him if needed. We do our best to keep our prices down for people but we also make sure they understand you get what you pay for with some of these others outbidding us. It sucks to have to go in and fix things after them.

BTW, the largest in our area was getting pretty much what they wanted with the local inspectors though I warned them 3 years ago they were doing it wrong. The inspectors made me jump a million hoops each job and kept saying that the big guy in business a lot longer knows their stuff. Well I bumped in to one who looked at the last job we will do in this county and he let me know that at least HE is seeing what I had been saying. Now people are having drywall bow and fall off because the inspectors refused to believe me that 1/2 of closed cell and then batts was going to create serious condensation issues in the winter.

Now people are going to have to pretty much GUT their new homes and have it done RIGHT but they will not be using foam and they are badmouthing the foam instead of the idiots who are doing cheap installs the wrong way just to make that buck.

Perfect example for you on remembering, cheap or being a huge guy with 10 crews does not mean they will do it right. So far it looks like you have been paying attention and doing a great job from what you described but just a reminder on looking at the contractor and double checking what they say.

Dennis Del Grosso

Posted: Apr 28, 2011 08:56 PM

Thanks Sir - good advice. I learned early in life to do a lot of research and pose a lot of questions, and that cheaper is rarely better. Used to get me in grief all the time in the GOvt when I wanted to buy BEST VALUE vrs cheapest price. There IS a difference between PRICE and COST!
Thanks

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