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Gianni Latona Posted: Jan 08, 2011 04:01 PM	SPRAY FOAM AND ASTHMA CLIENTS?? Good afternoon all. I recently moved into an apartment and my landlord would like for me to spray their crawlspace below. Above that is their two sons rooms whom suffer with sever asthma. What dangers does it hold to them installing it? Obviously during the spraying evolution there are alot of gasses but do you think over time the gas let off will affect them. Also, if we use a froth pak, would there be less voc's? THIS IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE ALL SPF CONTRACTORS SHOULD BE EDUCATED ON!!
Daniel X Posted: Jan 08, 2011 10:14 PM	Asthma and atomized isocyante do not mix. You need to move air out of the crawl space while spraying, and leave your air moving equipment on for a while after. The house should be empty when spraying. What makes you think some crappy froth pak is going to be any different?
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Jan 08, 2011 10:29 PM	I concur with dl123. Froth pak is a waste of money and risky endeavor for your health. I would suggest using a water blown foam which has much less issues than many of the 245-fa blowing agent foams, but it does still contain isocyantes whcih are an issue with asthma. But, there are some foams out there which are greenguard approved and excellent for indoor air quality, including asthma conditions. I know because we've sprayed a couple of house of people who we knew they would be alergic to it and they were. So we kept it ventilated for a while after we sprayed and it worked out fine. Now, they've hired us back to investigate some other issues. Jim
mason Posted: Jan 09, 2011 06:53 AM	Open or closed cell foams will give off the relative same level of harmful chemical emissions while spraying and should cure out to not give off harmful emissions if sprayed correctly. HFC 245fa is not a harmful emission to one's health and tends to stay in the foam cells over a period of time. See some of my earlier posts about thermal drift and aged R value of closed cell foam for a more detailed explanation. I also had experience with sprayfoam and persons who had severe chemical sensitivities. We were asked by a general contractor some years ago if they could use polyurethane foam in modular houses that were specifically built for persons who had become extremely chemical sensitive. These folks could not go to stores, hospitals, phamarcies and most places of business without an air purifying respirator. They carried syringes around their belt just in case they encountered a chemical that set off a seizure. They also carried oxygen bottles with them. They had become sensitized by working in their particular job environment with chemicals such as pesticides, asphalts, etc. They found that cured polyurethane foam was not a problem for them. They could not use fiberglass or cellulose. So, the modular houses were sprayed, with the folks that were living in them far away. We allowed 2 weeks after application before they were allowed back in. No problems, but you have to make sure the foam is sprayed correctly, on ratio and don't create too much exothermic heat by spraying too thick.
mason Posted: Jan 09, 2011 07:01 AM	I would also caution on the use of foam kits for folks with sensitivity to chemicals. It is much easier to spray slightly off ratio or not get a great mix with the foam kits. So, I would concur with hiring a contractor to spray with the high pressure equipment.
Gianni Latona Posted: Jan 09, 2011 10:42 AM	I am a spf contractor with a high pressure rig so this is why Im asking. Is it really unhealthy to use froth paks and why? I dont want to use them ever, just thought this application would be more suitable. I'd say probably 1" should be suffice, i'd love to do 2" but then you build up alot of heat. Thanks to everyone who commented back!!!
mason Posted: Jan 09, 2011 04:40 PM	A normal person would not typically have a problem with foam that is sprayed from foam pak units. But odors would be more likely with foam that is not mixed well which is more likely with a foam pak unit than with your regular proportioner. So, I would wish to minimize the potential for having slightly off ratio or poorly mixed foam with persons who have severe allergies or asthma.
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Jan 09, 2011 09:02 PM	I would also stay away from the froth paks due to the potential of off ratio spraying. I noticed that from when spraying, the froth packs seem to have much more off gasing than the high pressue two component foams. Especially the water blown foams - specifically Biobased. This seems much less hazardous than the 245fa blowing agent which I've also sprayed. There may not be anything hazardous in the 245fa blowing agent, but it seems it mixes differently than the water blown foams and can more of an effect on respiratory issues. Jim
mason Posted: Jan 11, 2011 04:24 PM	Jim, There is a greater risk of lingering odors when spraying thicker applications of closed cell sprayfoam over open cell sprayfoam. But it is not the blowing agent that is the problem but rather the exothermic heat that is given off during the reaction causing catalysts to become even more smelly than before. This can occur with closed cell foam made with CFC 11, HCFC 141 b , water or HFC245 fH. I caution applicators to meaure the internal temperature of the foam after it is sprayed (wait a couple of minutes for the heat to build up) If it is under 220 degrees f then it is OK but if it exceeds that temperature the cell structure of the foam will be affected causing poor physical properties and potentially strong lingering odors. OPen cell foam can also have lingering odors but it would be caused by a poor mix and not from high exothermic heat reaction.
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Jan 11, 2011 08:10 PM	Mason, It seems obvious that we aren't clear on what we're communicating. We're talking about spraying open cell foam over closed cell, not the other way around! I know from experience that the water blown foams seem much better with the off gassing smell than many of the others. I can say this because I've tried it and don't like spraying the 245fa blowing agent as much as I like spraying some of the water blown foams. Granted, that colder temperatures can also play a role in how well a lot of the water blown works, but we work through this. So, please re-read my comments above. Thanks, Jim

Author

Comments

Gianni Latona

Posted: Jan 08, 2011 04:01 PM

SPRAY FOAM AND ASTHMA CLIENTS??

Good afternoon all. I recently moved into an apartment and my landlord would like for me to spray their crawlspace below. Above that is their two sons rooms whom suffer with sever asthma. What dangers does it hold to them installing it? Obviously during the spraying evolution there are alot of gasses but do you think over time the gas let off will affect them. Also, if we use a froth pak, would there be less voc's?

THIS IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE ALL SPF CONTRACTORS SHOULD BE EDUCATED ON!!

Daniel X

Posted: Jan 08, 2011 10:14 PM

Asthma and atomized isocyante do not mix.

You need to move air out of the crawl space while spraying, and leave your air moving equipment on for a while after. The house should be empty when spraying.

What makes you think some crappy froth pak is going to be any different?

jimcoler

I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs.

I've expanded my knowledge into t

Posted: Jan 08, 2011 10:29 PM

I concur with dl123. Froth pak is a waste of money and risky endeavor for your health. I would suggest using a water blown foam which has much less issues than many of the 245-fa blowing agent foams, but it does still contain isocyantes whcih are an issue with asthma. But, there are some foams out there which are greenguard approved and excellent for indoor air quality, including asthma conditions. I know because we've sprayed a couple of house of people who we knew they would be alergic to it and they were. So we kept it ventilated for a while after we sprayed and it worked out fine. Now, they've hired us back to investigate some other issues.

Jim

mason

Posted: Jan 09, 2011 06:53 AM

Open or closed cell foams will give off the relative same level of harmful chemical emissions while spraying and should cure out to not give off harmful emissions if sprayed correctly. HFC 245fa is not a harmful emission to one's health and tends to stay in the foam cells over a period of time. See some of my earlier posts about thermal drift and aged R value of closed cell foam for a more detailed explanation.

I also had experience with sprayfoam and persons who had severe chemical sensitivities. We were asked by a general contractor some years ago if they could use polyurethane foam in modular houses that were specifically built for persons who had become extremely chemical sensitive. These folks could not go to stores, hospitals, phamarcies and most places of business without an air purifying respirator. They carried syringes around their belt just in case they encountered a chemical that set off a seizure. They also carried oxygen bottles with them.

They had become sensitized by working in their particular job environment with chemicals such as pesticides, asphalts, etc.

They found that cured polyurethane foam was not a problem for them. They could not use fiberglass or cellulose.

So, the modular houses were sprayed, with the folks that were living in them far away. We allowed 2 weeks after application before they were allowed back in. No problems, but you have to make sure the foam is sprayed correctly, on ratio and don't create too much exothermic heat by spraying too thick.

mason

Posted: Jan 09, 2011 07:01 AM

I would also caution on the use of foam kits for folks with sensitivity to chemicals. It is much easier to spray slightly off ratio or not get a great mix with the foam kits. So, I would concur with hiring a contractor to spray with the high pressure equipment.

Gianni Latona

Posted: Jan 09, 2011 10:42 AM

I am a spf contractor with a high pressure rig so this is why Im asking. Is it really unhealthy to use froth paks and why? I dont want to use them ever, just thought this application would be more suitable. I'd say probably 1" should be suffice, i'd love to do 2" but then you build up alot of heat. Thanks to everyone who commented back!!!

mason

Posted: Jan 09, 2011 04:40 PM

A normal person would not typically have a problem with foam that is sprayed from foam pak units. But odors would be more likely with foam that is not mixed well which is more likely with a foam pak unit than with your regular proportioner. So, I would wish to minimize the potential for having slightly off ratio or poorly mixed foam with persons who have severe allergies or asthma.

jimcoler

I've expanded my knowledge into t

Posted: Jan 09, 2011 09:02 PM

I would also stay away from the froth paks due to the potential of off ratio spraying. I noticed that from when spraying, the froth packs seem to have much more off gasing than the high pressue two component foams. Especially the water blown foams - specifically Biobased. This seems much less hazardous than the 245fa blowing agent which I've also sprayed. There may not be anything hazardous in the 245fa blowing agent, but it seems it mixes differently than the water blown foams and can more of an effect on respiratory issues.

Jim

mason

Posted: Jan 11, 2011 04:24 PM

Jim,

There is a greater risk of lingering odors when spraying thicker applications of closed cell sprayfoam over open cell sprayfoam. But it is not the blowing agent that is the problem but rather the exothermic heat that is given off during the reaction causing catalysts to become even more smelly than before. This can occur with closed cell foam made with CFC 11, HCFC 141 b , water or HFC245 fH. I caution applicators to meaure the internal temperature of the foam after it is sprayed (wait a couple of minutes for the heat to build up) If it is under 220 degrees f then it is OK but if it exceeds that temperature the cell structure of the foam will be affected causing poor physical properties and potentially strong lingering odors.

OPen cell foam can also have lingering odors but it would be caused by a poor mix and not from high exothermic heat reaction.

jimcoler

I've expanded my knowledge into t

Posted: Jan 11, 2011 08:10 PM

Mason,
It seems obvious that we aren't clear on what we're communicating. We're talking about spraying open cell foam over closed cell, not the other way around! I know from experience that the water blown foams seem much better with the off gassing smell than many of the others. I can say this because I've tried it and don't like spraying the 245fa blowing agent as much as I like spraying some of the water blown foams. Granted, that colder temperatures can also play a role in how well a lot of the water blown works, but we work through this.

So, please re-read my comments above.
Thanks,
Jim

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