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Bryan Kwater Posted: Mar 26, 2010 11:56 AM	Testing We are quoting a job that calls for the foam contractor to submit foam field inspections and test reports. It states: "Installer shall conduct daily visual inspection, adhesion/cohesion testing and density measurement as outlined by the ULC S705.2-02 Installation standard." What should I be doing to comply with these requirements? Are these all types of tests that I can perform myself? And if so, how? Thanks.
mason Posted: Mar 26, 2010 07:53 PM	I am not familiar with the specific standard but daily density and compressive strength sampling is overkill. An experienced applicator can check the foam with a thumb test and do a visual check on the foam to see if the cell structure is ok. I would expect this to be used by an inspector hired to perform a quality assurance inspection at the end of the job. However if the standard allows it you can do a density check by cutting a sample of foam, weighing it with a scale that can read very light materials (gram or fractions of ounces) there is a field compressive strength tester called a Com Ten. I have one it costs apprx $1500 and can give you reading accurate to 2-5%
quentin Posted: Mar 27, 2010 11:14 PM	What is going on with all these requirements? It is like they want a specific contractor for all these jobs and are making requirements like this to get around opening the work to others. I have gotten a couple of calls for a new project but again the ABAA requirement for all sprayers, supervisors and everyone involved comes up. Anymore when these other contractors call me asking about many of these projects I just ask several questions and if the answers are for things like the ABAA junk I just tell them to ask the prime who they are specing to get the work and be upfront to all those bidding on the rest instead of wasting the time of everyone.
mason Posted: Mar 29, 2010 02:16 PM	Quentin brings up a good point. Why not suggest that they contact an independent consultant who doesn't have an agenda such as myself, Roger Morrison or Robb Smith (roofing)? We get involved in projects from time to time where the building owners or their representatives want to use foam but are afraid of having lousy work. We can assist them in putting a spec together that works and ensures quality without being ridiculous.
Bryan Kwater Posted: Mar 31, 2010 09:10 AM	Thanks for the info. It is for a college project, so I made a suggestion to the architect that he get ahold of you when designing future projects. They are usually set in their ways, so most likely we will just see more of the same. It sure gets frustrating when you try to bid these jobs like they want, then lose them to some yahoo that hasn't even read the specs. Who knows if they will even ask for the test data in the end? But if you don't include it and they end up wanting it, things could get ugly. One unfortunate event that is taking place here more often is a drywall company buying the foam, then subcontract the installation only to whoever is cheapest. They always find someone dirt cheap too. Neither the drywaller nor the installer has much knowledge about foam. So I kind of like the idiotic specs in that regard, maybe someone will get burned on a few of these projects and stop that bad practice. Anyone with 2 grand can buy foam whether they have a machine or not.
mason Posted: Apr 01, 2010 11:46 AM	EE Gads! Michigan Foamer, drywallers taking the contract to spray foam and buying the product. That's like a carpenter taking on the contract to install the electrical.
steven argus Posted: Apr 01, 2010 11:52 AM	Michigan Foamer, talk to your customers about warantees. You have to be certified by the manufacturer of the foam to honor that warantee. I doubt the drywallers buying foam off ebay are certified or the moron spraying the foam for the drywallers are.
Bryan Kwater Posted: Apr 01, 2010 08:58 PM	Welcome to my world. The way the specs on most commercial jobs in this area are written, there is no warranty requested for the foam. This practice of drywallers buying the material is becoming very regular. They aren't buyin off ebay, they are buyin from the same place as us. We will not provide a quote for labor only, but there are plenty of people who will. The only thing that matters is price. I know people don't like more rules, but if material was only sold to "certified" installers, it could only help the good contractors around us. Now it seems that in residential projects that reputation and word of mouth are very important. Luckily we do both commercial and residential.
Posted: Apr 02, 2010 05:30 AM	if you could please... list the manufacturer whom is selling foam to untrained,,non-applicators,,,off the street,,type of folks,, these folks need to be held accountable.. i have no problem lettin the world know just whom they are,,and how they practice,,,and im talkin about the manufacturer,,not the drywall peeps... btw...bid for the same number you use if you bought the foam ,,,,f'em feed em fish!!! kinda like the ortho surgeon from east of here that "had the barrels of foam and am lookin for someone to spray it"... big I dealer north of here is a drywall contractor primary business,,aint that whom you want installin your spf,,the crew coverin it up.. maybe manditory inspections post-install should be mandated???? kinda like the filterglass company that does their own heers/performance rateings from the same community,,,,can you imagine all their homes exceed energy star minimum???go figure
steven argus Posted: Apr 02, 2010 07:51 AM	YA! LETS GET EM! (roar from angry crowd with torches can be heard in the background)
Bryan Kwater Posted: Apr 02, 2010 08:30 AM	I really don't want to mention names publicly, but lets just say that it's not just one manufacturer. Everyone is chasing the mighty dollar and not worried about the future. I will say that distributors seem to be the real problem, not the manufacturers. The manufacturers who sell foam directly to the user seem to do a halfway decent job of checking out new installers. But when generic specs on a job will allow nearly any brand foam that conforms to the specs, it's open season.
steven argus Posted: Apr 02, 2010 09:40 AM	Come on, list the names. We need to let the manufactures/ distributors know that we don't like it. Mabey they will clean up their act. If we don't speak up, they will just keep doing it. I will not buy from Spray Foam Polymers (ThermoSeal) because of the way they treated Buffman (and I don't like "salesmen" buggin me) look at what they did to Long time lurker- I won't buy from them and they need to know that. I also won't buy foam off ebay. although I do get alot of info off ebay, I don't think it's smart for distributors to list a "but it now price" for foam. If there are snakes in the grass, speak up! If I'm thinking of trying a new foam, one of the first things I do, is check this forum to see if anyone has spayed that foam. We need to help each other out, speak up!
Posted: Apr 03, 2010 05:32 AM	actually,, i was thinkin more like providing the names to the spfa...let kurt and the crew handle it.. they want certified,,trained applicators,,and the suppliers "claim" they want a dealer network of trained/authorized installers,,, and since the spfa is a "industry supported" entity... let them make the call to the supplier,,who should denut the distributor... hell if this is how it is done...why not just supply menards or lowes,,or home depot,,,????just drive up and get your juice and go spray willy nilly,,, and im friggin serious...do away with the distributor network,,,(which is just another hand in the pocketbook)dont look like it is needed if this is how foam is gonna be or can be sold... i did a quote on a large custom for a guy who after the numbers was in his hand exclaimed,, dude-im gonna buy my rig and fluid off of ebay or from *******(fill in the blanks,,lol) and when i am done im just gonna resell it on ebay..cause i can.. i wished him well..
mason Posted: Apr 03, 2010 09:02 AM	I can tell you that the trade groups such as SPFA, CPI, ICAA plus the major foam suppliers are very concerned about folks spraying foam that are not trained and educated particularly in safety and health issues as well as quality control. Expect some mandatory industry form of certification taking hold in the next few years. Anticipating the need for better and more consistent SPF training and education, I have created a division of Mason Knowles Consulting called the Sprayfoam Educational Institute. Partering with other consultants and educators such as Roger MOrrison, Robb Smith, Bob Jutras, George Spanos and others, we are offering industry based education and training that includes SPFA accrediation courses and our own educational presentations and courses. The courses are designed to provide a generic brand of training to applicators, inspectors and sales staff so that the attendee can be exposed to consensus based industry best practices on SPF applications
Tim Wojnarski Posted: Apr 05, 2010 09:57 AM	Michigan Foamer, Be careful what you wish for. The scenario you described manifests itself a little differently here. It's not uncommon for a drywaller or mason contractor to end up with the "foam package" in their contract. Sometimes they catch it before their bid goes in, sometimes they don't (value engineer anyone?). The difference here is that the majority of the time these sub-prime contractors will sub out the work to a qualified installer. You just have to follow the bouncing ball and see where it lands. Anyway, my point is don't fight it at the architectural level. If they perceive that qualified applicators are a problem, then they will specify qualified applicators, and that will mean ABAA spec.s, a whole other set of problems. If you are going to work it, work it with the GC's or CM's. That's where you will get your most mileage, but it's still an uphill battle. Good luck!
Bryan Kwater Posted: Apr 05, 2010 03:07 PM	Drywallers or masons that subcontract out the entire foam portion are not the problem. We bid with those contractors all the time. The problems begin when they try to run the foam trade like they do the drywall trade. Big company buys the materials and keeps running around to a couple part time foam guys to see who can install it the cheapest. Whoever ends up with the cheapest square foot price gets it. This same practice has killed the drywall market and now there aren't many americans that will do it for, in some cases, below minimum wage. I don't think foam will get to that point, but it is in the beginning stages. Things would be a lot easier if spray foam was in it's own bid category on CM projects. We have been suggesting that that happen for quite some time, but have yet to see it. As far as safety goes, I know of a couple of these low-ball companies that don't make their workers wear any respirators at all. I know it's hard to believe, but it's true. We even witnessed one person spraying overhead with no glasses or respirator at all. His face was covered with foam. Said he has been doing it for 11 years, somehow I don't think he will be doing it for 11 more. When I talk with other reputable contractors, they have similar stories. Common sense isn't very common.