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Posted: Jun 07, 2009 07:05 PM	Thermal Barriers (I'm about to complain to you) Hi Mason We lost out on several large bids over the past couple of weeks ($40K to $50K) on each job with two Fortune 500 companies due to our insistence on making the customer aware that a 15 min thermal barrier must be applied over spray foam on the undersides of their metal buildings. One was in a welding shop and the other was in a machine shop. If I had lost out to price on an "Apples to Apples quote", I would feel much better, but it seems that most (not all, but well over 90%) of the applicators in this area are not abiding by the IBC Guidelines. What should we do? Should we sit back and let these guys take the business, have our customers sign waivers that they will do the thermal barriers themselves or is there something else that we can do? I feel helpless concerning this issue for several reasons: 1) It doesn't take much to get sued these days and I don't want to open up my company to violating this guidline due to the ramifications. 2) These other guys could care less and evidently don't have a problem taking the risk. 3) If I complain to the companies, they will just quit taking my calls I really think that there needs to be one agency that Spray Foam Applicators should fall under so that we are all on an even field. For what it is worth! Steve
Dennis Davidson Posted: Jun 08, 2009 08:08 AM	Steve My two cents! I've had the same problem in my area. Lost one a few months ago that was over $100G's and several smaller ones. Then I started talking to my customers about putting the foam on the exterior. My usual response is "on the outside, didn't know you could do that"? In the past 6 weeks I've successfully converted three projects to the exterior that I would have lost to some unscrupulous interior guy that skips out on the thermal barrier. If you can't fight "apples to apples....create your own (legitimate) orange. Dennis
mason Posted: Jun 08, 2009 10:12 AM	This has been a problem since my father started spraying foam in the early 60s. I encountered itwhen I had my contracting business. The only response is to educate your customers and let the trade association know what is happening. We used to have a standard boilerplate white paper that was on SPFA (PFCD) letterhead stating the facts about foam and thermal barrier/ignition barriers. A copy went to anyone that requested it,plus a copy was also sent to the building code department of the community. This might help, contact Rick Duncan or Kurt Riesenberg with SPFA and ask them for an updated copy of the paper.
JohnPeters Posted: Jun 17, 2009 08:30 PM	IBC and ICC regs aside; at present, if the particular proprietary blend of foam you are using has an ICC approval document stating that their foam can be left exposed in an attic or crawl for utility purposes then you are in the clear.... Right or wrong? jp
richard sucher II Posted: Jun 17, 2009 08:44 PM	In these cases, I have talked to the owner and asked them to ask their insurance carrier what their stand is on exposed foam on the interior of buildings that they insure. also, you can point out to the owner that he is putting his workers at risk and that he should run the idea of exposed foam by his legal department. also, the owner needs to know that should the foam go in without proper protection and that at some future time it is discovered to be needing a thermal barrier by an insurance audit, fire department inspection, etc. that the application of the thermal barrier material at that time could be much more expensive. This approach has worked for us on several occasions. Have not gotten all the jobs but did get the owner to at least bid the foam with thermal barrier. Good luck. PS - We have been involved in foam related fire that resulted in death of individual. Not a pleasant experience. Stick to your guns - waivers do not work.
chad harris Posted: Jun 17, 2009 09:42 PM	It is what it is, it's way better off to be on the up and up than have to deal with some Civil Suit if a fire were to happen. Whats really sucks is that there are contractors selling the foam without a barrier, knowing damn well it's suppose to be on there!
Posted: Jun 17, 2009 11:20 PM	I stuck to my guns on both jobs and lost both. I took Macs (Dennis) advice and convinced my next customer to go with a foam roofing system over the metal panel rather than going on the underside with an ignition barrier. It certainly is a lot easier spraying down than up. I hated to loose the other two jobs, but besides getting sued, I would feel terrible if someone got hurt for something that I did. I'll keep trying though! Steve
Dennis Davidson Posted: Jun 24, 2009 08:38 AM	Steve Congrats on converting your customer. I think it's always better to put foam on the exterior when ever possible. Most of the time a potential interior customer doesn't even know it can be put on the exterior. Way to go! Dennis

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Posted: Jun 07, 2009 07:05 PM

Thermal Barriers (I'm about to complain to you)

Hi Mason

We lost out on several large bids over the past couple of weeks ($40K to $50K) on each job with two Fortune 500 companies due to our insistence on making the customer aware that a 15 min thermal barrier must be applied over spray foam on the undersides of their metal buildings.

One was in a welding shop and the other was in a machine shop.

If I had lost out to price on an "Apples to Apples quote", I would feel much better, but it seems that most (not all, but well over 90%) of the applicators in this area are not abiding by the IBC Guidelines.

What should we do?

Should we sit back and let these guys take the business, have our customers sign waivers that they will do the thermal barriers themselves or is there something else that we can do?

I feel helpless concerning this issue for several reasons:

1) It doesn't take much to get sued these days and I don't want to open up my company to violating this guidline due to the ramifications.

2) These other guys could care less and evidently don't have a problem taking the risk.

3) If I complain to the companies, they will just quit taking my calls

I really think that there needs to be one agency that Spray Foam Applicators should fall under so that we are all on an even field.

For what it is worth!

Steve

Dennis Davidson

Posted: Jun 08, 2009 08:08 AM

Steve
My two cents!
I've had the same problem in my area. Lost one a few months ago that was over $100G's and several smaller ones. Then I started talking to my customers about putting the foam on the exterior. My usual response is "on the outside, didn't know you could do that"?
In the past 6 weeks I've successfully converted three projects to the exterior that I would have lost to some unscrupulous interior guy that skips out on the thermal barrier.

If you can't fight "apples to apples....create your own (legitimate) orange.

Dennis

mason

Posted: Jun 08, 2009 10:12 AM

This has been a problem since my father started spraying foam in the early 60s. I encountered itwhen I had my contracting business. The only response is to educate your customers and let the trade association know what is happening. We used to have a standard boilerplate white paper that was on SPFA (PFCD) letterhead stating the facts about foam and thermal barrier/ignition barriers. A copy went to anyone that requested it,plus a copy was also sent to the building code department of the community.

This might help, contact Rick Duncan or Kurt Riesenberg with SPFA and ask them for an updated copy of the paper.

JohnPeters

Posted: Jun 17, 2009 08:30 PM

IBC and ICC regs aside; at present, if the particular proprietary blend of foam you are using has an ICC approval document stating that their foam can be left exposed in an attic or crawl for utility purposes then you are in the clear....

Right or wrong?

jp

richard sucher II

Posted: Jun 17, 2009 08:44 PM

In these cases, I have talked to the owner and asked them to ask their insurance carrier what their stand is on exposed foam on the interior of buildings that they insure. also, you can point out to the owner that he is putting his workers at risk and that he should run the idea of exposed foam by his legal department. also, the owner needs to know that should the foam go in without proper protection and that at some future time it is discovered to be needing a thermal barrier by an insurance audit, fire department inspection, etc. that the application of the thermal barrier material at that time could be much more expensive.
This approach has worked for us on several occasions. Have not gotten all the jobs but did get the owner to at least bid the foam with thermal barrier. Good luck.
PS - We have been involved in foam related fire that resulted in death of individual. Not a pleasant experience. Stick to your guns - waivers do not work.

chad harris

Posted: Jun 17, 2009 09:42 PM

It is what it is, it's way better off to be on the up and up than have to deal with some Civil Suit if a fire were to happen. Whats really sucks is that there are contractors selling the foam without a barrier, knowing damn well it's suppose to be on there!

Posted: Jun 17, 2009 11:20 PM

I stuck to my guns on both jobs and lost both. I took Macs (Dennis) advice and convinced my next customer to go with a foam roofing system over the metal panel rather than going on the underside with an ignition barrier.

It certainly is a lot easier spraying down than up.

I hated to loose the other two jobs, but besides getting sued, I would feel terrible if someone got hurt for something that I did.

I'll keep trying though!

Steve

Dennis Davidson

Posted: Jun 24, 2009 08:38 AM

Steve
Congrats on converting your customer. I think it's always better to put foam on the exterior when ever possible. Most of the time a potential interior customer doesn't even know it can be put on the exterior.

Way to go!
Dennis

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