UL rating for cc foam? | Ask Mason Knowles - SPF Consultant | Spray Foam Technical Questions and Answers | SprayFoam Magazine Q&A Forums

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Brian Mulder Posted: May 22, 2007 11:02 PM	UL rating for cc foam? Mason, I put out a bid for a CC foam job and am getting close to selling. However my customer was told by the insurance underwriters that they will not pass the job unless the foam has a UL rating for it or is UL approved. I am a fairly new foamer and have never heard of this. My customer says that the reason they give is that most wiring will be encased in foam which can increase the temp of the wire which in turn can cause a fire. Are the underwriters reaching or is their something I missed. Thanks
mason Posted: May 23, 2007 08:18 AM	Gotfoam, I presume CC is closed cell foam? If the underwriter is referring to the flame spread rating, that information is available from your foam supplier. Building codes require flame spread ratings to be a minimum of 75 or less and smoke developed ratings of 450 or less in accordance with ASTM E-84. (most of your suppliers will have this on the material data sheets along with other physical property information.) A supplier may opt to be part of UL's follow up program where UL actually inspects the suppliers facilities to verify that what they tested is what they are manufacturing. This is not required by the building codes. Some suppliers belong to this program some do not. Wiring reports are available conducted by SPFA and others. Let me know if you require additional assistance with your underwriters. Contact me at masonknowles@aol.com
Gerry Wagoner Posted: May 23, 2007 09:50 AM	Mason, I left you a phone message (45-days ago) regarding this romex wiring question. Evidently this is something we need to address as an industry, because the electrical inspection field is beginning to make noise about heat buildup in romex encased in spray foam. I don't know what is motivating this "concern" yet - presumably isolated manufacturers or lawyers, or both. (Fiberglass or cellulose people perhaps?) Don't know yet. Nevertheless it seems unfounded, since spray foam has been utilized for over 30-years in residential studwalls without problems. Let's find out as an industry where this chorus of complaints/questions is stemming from. Thus we will be better prepared to provide solid answers. Warm regards, olger
mason Posted: May 23, 2007 01:18 PM	Olger, This issue has come up from time to time and I do recall 4-5 phone calls on the same project concerning wiring a few months ago. I provided at least 3 individuals with research conducted by the Center for Applied Engineering that showed the temperatures of the wiring not exceeding the wiring insulation limitations. But I am no longer working for SPFA. I would be happy to work with a group of concerned suppliers and contractors to coordinate additional testing that may be required or to compile exisitng research data for presentations to selected agencies, specifiers or other. This is precisely the type of work I would love to get involved in. Contact me at masonknowles@aol.com to brainstorm the issue.
Posted: May 25, 2007 06:17 AM	(olger,,as spray foam gains a foot hold,..you will hear every "what if" senerio imaginable.. it is amazing that people can "what if" and then we have to disprove their alegations...remind them that "talk is cheap..show me the study"...then i will address when i know what, who, and how to do so... i find it amazing that the code officials dont know what the code is that they are regulating...that we have to find and show them the sections pertaining to our code approved applications... i too believe it is being fed by "our competition"..who appear to post on this site every now and agian,,,) to topic,,besides the heat gain issue from buried wire,,,have you heard this one yet?? it will eat the casing of the romex...it will eat the back of the drywall paper...serious,,,heard em all out here...think pink,,,pussies... the study mason refers to should put the officials at ease,,show em its almost ten friggin years old and pat em on the back and tell em their doing a good job keeping up on their industry, THIER regulations...
Gerry Wagoner Posted: May 25, 2007 02:22 PM	Heard that, Mark. Happy M-Day. oG
Brian Mulder Posted: May 27, 2007 10:29 AM	Great discussion but I still am left holding the ball on the fact that I can not do this job without a document that gives my foam a UL rating. The foam I am using is form North American Processing who gets it private label from Gaco Western. I have contacted them and they can get no such document from Gaco. If anyone has and documents that may help my case please feel free to e-mail them to me or if anyone knows of a foam supplier that has a UL rating for their closed cell foam please let me know and I will get my foam from them for this project and maybe more depending on the logistics. I am in the Catskill Mountains in NYS and have no close place to get foam from therefore my shipping costs are high. Thanks. mulder@catskill.net
mason Posted: May 28, 2007 07:53 PM	You need to be specific of what type of UL rating you are needing. If it is a class 1 or class II foam. That is listed on the material data sheet. If you require a UL P rating, many foam suppliers have that as well. If you are talking about the wiring, foam would not have a UL rating it would be the wiring insulation. Then you would need the wiring manufacturer to supply information about their product.

Author

Comments

Brian Mulder

Posted: May 22, 2007 11:02 PM

UL rating for cc foam?

Mason, I put out a bid for a CC foam job and am getting close to selling. However my customer was told by the insurance underwriters that they will not pass the job unless the foam has a UL rating for it or is UL approved. I am a fairly new foamer and have never heard of this. My customer says that the reason they give is that most wiring will be encased in foam which can increase the temp of the wire which in turn can cause a fire. Are the underwriters reaching or is their something I missed.

Thanks

mason

Posted: May 23, 2007 08:18 AM

Gotfoam,

I presume CC is closed cell foam? If the underwriter is referring to the flame spread rating, that information is available from your foam supplier. Building codes require flame spread ratings to be a minimum of 75 or less and smoke developed ratings of 450 or less in accordance with ASTM E-84. (most of your suppliers will have this on the material data sheets along with other physical property information.) A supplier may opt to be part of UL's follow up program where UL actually inspects the suppliers facilities to verify that what they tested is what they are manufacturing. This is not required by the building codes. Some suppliers belong to this program some do not.

Wiring reports are available conducted by SPFA and others. Let me know if you require additional assistance with your underwriters. Contact me at masonknowles@aol.com

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: May 23, 2007 09:50 AM

Mason, I left you a phone message (45-days ago) regarding this romex wiring question. Evidently this is something we need to address as an industry, because the electrical inspection field is beginning to make noise about heat buildup in romex encased in spray foam.

I don't know what is motivating this "concern" yet - presumably isolated manufacturers or lawyers, or both. (Fiberglass or cellulose people perhaps?) Don't know yet.

Nevertheless it seems unfounded, since spray foam has been utilized for over 30-years in residential studwalls without problems. Let's find out as an industry where this chorus of complaints/questions is stemming from. Thus we will be better prepared to provide solid answers.

Warm regards,

olger

mason

Posted: May 23, 2007 01:18 PM

Olger,

This issue has come up from time to time and I do recall 4-5 phone calls on the same project concerning wiring a few months ago. I provided at least 3 individuals with research conducted by the Center for Applied Engineering that showed the temperatures of the wiring not exceeding the wiring insulation limitations.

But I am no longer working for SPFA. I would be happy to work with a group of concerned suppliers and contractors to coordinate additional testing that may be required or to compile exisitng research data for presentations to selected agencies, specifiers or other.

This is precisely the type of work I would love to get involved in. Contact me at masonknowles@aol.com to brainstorm the issue.

Posted: May 25, 2007 06:17 AM

(olger,,as spray foam gains a foot hold,..you will hear every "what if" senerio imaginable..
it is amazing that people can "what if" and then we have to disprove their alegations...remind them that "talk is cheap..show me the study"...then i will address when i know what, who, and how to do so...
i find it amazing that the code officials dont know what the code is that they are regulating...that we have to find and show them the sections pertaining to our code approved applications...
i too believe it is being fed by "our competition"..who appear to post on this site every now and agian,,,)

to topic,,besides the heat gain issue from buried wire,,,have you heard this one yet?? it will eat the casing of the romex...it will eat the back of the drywall paper...serious,,,heard em all out here...think pink,,,pussies...

the study mason refers to should put the officials at ease,,show em its almost ten friggin years old and pat em on the back and tell em their doing a good job keeping up on their industry, THIER regulations...

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: May 25, 2007 02:22 PM

Heard that, Mark. Happy M-Day.

oG

Brian Mulder

Posted: May 27, 2007 10:29 AM

Great discussion but I still am left holding the ball on the fact that I can not do this job without a document that gives my foam a UL rating. The foam I am using is form North American Processing who gets it private label from Gaco Western. I have contacted them and they can get no such document from Gaco.

If anyone has and documents that may help my case please feel free to e-mail them to me or if anyone knows of a foam supplier that has a UL rating for their closed cell foam please let me know and I will get my foam from them for this project and maybe more depending on the logistics. I am in the Catskill Mountains in NYS and have no close place to get foam from therefore my shipping costs are high. Thanks.

mulder@catskill.net

mason

Posted: May 28, 2007 07:53 PM

You need to be specific of what type of UL rating you are needing. If it is a class 1 or class II foam. That is listed on the material data sheet. If you require a UL P rating, many foam suppliers have that as well.

If you are talking about the wiring, foam would not have a UL rating it would be the wiring insulation. Then you would need the wiring manufacturer to supply information about their product.

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