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We need a new blowing agent. Post New Topic | Post Reply
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Gerry Wagoner
Posted: Mar 24, 2006 12:21 PM
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We need a new blowing agent.
Honeywell has stuck us with a difficult product.245fa makes a good roofing foam, but it is harder to work with than previous blowing agents. The cost is a huge disadvantage as well. I have been in the industry for 22-years, and I have not seen a cost-benefit ratio like it is currently. Many people are being driven into the arms of wall-spray cellulose, or sponge-foam (half-pound). Plus, there is the ridiculous low boiling point of 245fa. 59°. Come on guys. You can do better than that. With 141b we had 4-5 manufacturers of blowing agent. With 245fa (thanks to the idiotic EPA) we have one supplier, and they are selling it considerably cheaper in Europe than in America. In summary, we need more alternatives for blowing agents. Whomever develops a viable alternative will reap huge benefits, and elevate the market towards a better cost-benefit ratio. (Rant over). Let's lodge our request for better blowing agents. Just recently I was given a sample of a 1.7-pound water base foam. This is the kind of technology that is needed. Where are the guiding thinkers of our fine industry? gcw |
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Posted: Mar 24, 2006 08:02 PM
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please,,my friend..rant somemore.. we need to be more verbal in expressing our dislike for this product. it is not working...at a time crucial to the foam inulation industry... we pay more (how much did your material costs rise in last 1/2 04 & 05?)for a product that is marginal at best.. in late august,,,the industry decides to tell us that it HAS TO BE KEPT AT <85 degrees..well by then i had the crap boiling out of the top of my bung adapter unbeknownst to me,due to the high ambient temps and the agitation of going down the road, didnt anyone in a lab think of this possibility? in november they tell us it aint gonna work below 50 degrees...so i have a 2 month window of application opportunity... better living thru chemistry my butt... we need a new blowing agent.. still ranting... |
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Gerry Wagoner
Posted: Mar 26, 2006 10:00 AM
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Good rant :). In 5-7 years, Honeywell's lock will drop off the market. I hope we have good memories in this industry, when that happens. Better alternatives are needed. The foam industry was poised to make a big dent in the insulation market when these blowing agent changes occurred. Within the next two years, we will see if that growth potential was realized or dampened. We are seeing customers coming to us who are well-educated on foam (internet) and they want it. When we price it, many of them groan and ask for the nearest Home Depot. We had better get our act together and develop some decent alternative blowing agents. The market is RIPE for ingenuity! We should also go the DOE (Dept. of Energy) and spread out our case before tham and ask for millions of funding to develop better blowing agents. After all, it was another government agency that caused these problems. What do we want? Wish list: * We want a blowing agent that boils from 75-100. * We want it to be readily availaible and less expensive. * We want more suppliers. Away with this nonsense where the EPA literally creates a cornered market with their senseless rulings (CFC's are heavier than air, incidentally. How they can be blamed for ozone issues is well beyond common sense ). * We want a material that is near 8 R-value per inch with minimal "drift". Or, tolerable drift. * And BRING BACK PLASTIC DRUMS!! If we don't figure this out as an industry, three hippies in California working in a garage will figure it out and become overnight millionaires :). The customers (citizens) are the ones who are getting hurt here. Many of them are priced out of this desirable insulation, even though they would like to have it. gcw |
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Posted: Mar 30, 2006 10:21 PM
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Guys - What kind of yields are you getting out of a set. |
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Posted: Apr 01, 2006 06:27 AM
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i agree, since the blowing agent has changed,we have experienced great difficulties in applications compared to years past. i would say that temps. are the catch 22, and we are on the losing end. first is the increase in pricing, which we have to pass on to the customer. second, is the inability to spray quality, i mean a constant erratic spray pattern makes it very difficult to spray an even layer of foam that looks like quality workmanship. ( this is due to pre-curing in the mixing chamber at lower temps, and excessive build up if temps are to high) third, is the fact that surface temps/conditions (moisture) have to be perfect- or your going to watch the foam crack/pop and fall right out of the wall! up in the north where temps and humidity are allways a posing issue, this is my main concern regarding the new blowing agent, something we have not experienced in years past!! its hard to explain to a customer why we cant spray their job today because of conditions, and lets face it, everyone builds on a schedule, and wants the work done yesterday!!!! |
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Posted: Apr 01, 2006 08:40 AM
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(are there any industry folks out there who can help relieve our agnst?) |
