2-lb closed cell thickness | Ask Mason Knowles - SPF Consultant | Spray Foam Technical Questions and Answers | SprayFoam Magazine Q&A Forums

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Mark Mouton Posted: Jul 18, 2013 06:56 AM	2-lb closed cell thickness I'm in southeast Texas where we deal in hot-humid. I am bidding to install sprayfoam on an existing house roofline(2400 sq ft living area,8/12 pitch, 3 gables). I like to use open cell in this aplication @ 5-6" thick. When we install this type job, we spray between rafters, and then put a pass on top of the rafters. I've taken my laser thermometer and shot the backside of decking in an attic at 2-4 o'clock in the afternoon. Seems 140 degrees is common. I know after sprayfoam is installed, this temperature will increase. I don't know by how much, but I'm gonna say to 175. If we want our attic temperature to be 80 degrees after the sprayfoam job is complete, I feel the skin temperature on the foam should be 80 degrees(or whatever temp the attic is). If the skin is warmer, then we haven't stopped the heat. I've shot them after the foam is installed and found it to be equal to 3 degrees warmer than attic temp. So, I have a man that wants 2-lb closed cell installed on his roofline. (It's HIS house) I'm bidding against 2 other insulation companies and they are telling him 2" is enough. I'm telling him it needs to be 3"(around an R-20). 2" will change his house, but it isn't what it needs to be. We're looking at around 90-100 degree spread in temp. I haven't installed closed cell on a shingled roofline before. I don't like the fact of it being a moisture barrier and if he had a leak, he wouldn't know it until his roofline fell in at that spot. But,we always install 2" c.c.in floors on houses on piers as a moisture barrier. I'm asking for comments on that temp spread.
mason Posted: Jul 18, 2013 12:43 PM	I had a sprayfoam business for 8 years in South Texas, (South Padre Island) and did work in the area for over 20 years. I still go back each year and own a condo on the island. My brother is an architect based out of Los Fresnos. I found that 3 inches of closed cell to the underside of the roof worked well, 2 inches not quite enough. But if you are spraying to code, you need 4 to 4.5 inches of closed cell and 7-8 inches of open cell to reach an R 30. Open cell ranges from 3.5 to 4.1 per inch and closed cell from 6.1 to 6.8 per inch. By the way it is a myth that you would not notice a roof leak with closed cell foam. In fact we used the closed cell foam to help stop potential roof leaks by sealing in cracks next to flashing and penetrations. See my article on sprayfoam myths at my website, masonknowles.com
mark moyer Posted: Jul 19, 2013 10:40 PM	welcome to the world of spray foam contracting... so you have a choice,,,compromise your inegrity like the folks bidding against you and bid cheap to get "the job"... to hell for our industries integrity or yours for that matter its just about the money they make and the money the salesman made pushin these crapheads... educate the customer as best you can,,,or not,,,cheap begets cheap,,,give him what he deserves maybe,,,clear your head and walk away,,you will not get this work he just wants cheap even if its wrong... in the past i have spent many hours educating beleiveing it is the right thing to do...in the end,,my lips hurt and cheap still prevailed ,,,,,,anymore i dont waste my time you cant install half as much and expect twice as much,,, do the right thing and your reputation for such will reap you many benifits,,,learn to seperate yourself from the battles that arent advantagous to your time and resourses... ,im with you on the oc application,,,but i like10",,,r40,,,my costs are good,,physics is physics,,,i have no failures,,,i have many happy customers,,,my supplier luvs my azz,,
mark moyer Posted: Jul 19, 2013 10:40 PM	welcome to the world of spray foam contracting... so you have a choice,,,compromise your inegrity like the folks bidding against you and bid cheap to get "the job"... to hell for our industries integrity or yours for that matter its just about the money they make and the money the salesman made pushin these crapheads... educate the customer as best you can,,,or not,,,cheap begets cheap,,,give him what he deserves maybe,,,clear your head and walk away,,you will not get this work he just wants cheap even if its wrong... in the past i have spent many hours educating beleiveing it is the right thing to do...in the end,,my lips hurt and cheap still prevailed ,,,,,,anymore i dont waste my time you cant install half as much and expect twice as much,,, do the right thing and your reputation for such will reap you many benifits,,,learn to seperate yourself from the battles that arent advantagous to your time and resourses... ,im with you on the oc application,,,but i like10",,,r40,,,my costs are good,,physics is physics,,,i have no failures,,,i have many happy customers,,,my supplier luvs my azz,,
Cory Boehs Posted: Jul 21, 2013 03:47 PM	Go get em, foam dude! I agree. I have learned an important lesson recently.... We are the professionals, therefore it is up to us to educate and use the right type of insulation at the right thickness. If they want cheap, they WILL be able to find the revolving base of contractors that just got their brand new to them foam rig that they got from the last contractor that couldn't make the killing that he thought he was going to. Sell yourself as the expert, do a good job, clean it up like it was your own, and your pricing becomes one of the details. If price is the biggest point, walk away. We are in our 6th year, and have seen quite a few contractors come and go. I recently heard some pricing of our competitors, and we are $.30 higher a square foot! Find the customers in your market that are looking for the best insulation out there, and figure out how to market to them. Leave the others to your competition. A lot of homeowners have no idea what their foam job should cost. That extra $500 that you are thinking of giving up usually will not make the difference. I just priced a house for a client, and was double of what he THOUGHT it would be. Clearly, we were out of his budget, but couldn't have got the whole house even if we cut all the labor, profit, and overhead out. We ended up spraying the bonus room only on that one. Understand that you won't get them all, but be willing to walk away if the client is only looking for price. Those are also the clients that will cause 80% of your headaches.....

Author

Comments

Mark Mouton

Posted: Jul 18, 2013 06:56 AM

2-lb closed cell thickness

I'm in southeast Texas where we deal in hot-humid. I am bidding to install sprayfoam on an existing house roofline(2400 sq ft living area,8/12 pitch, 3 gables).
I like to use open cell in this aplication @ 5-6" thick. When we install this type job, we spray between rafters, and then put a pass on top of the rafters.
I've taken my laser thermometer and shot the backside of decking in an attic at 2-4 o'clock in the afternoon. Seems 140 degrees is common. I know after sprayfoam is installed, this temperature will increase. I don't know by how much, but I'm gonna say to 175. If we want our attic temperature to be 80 degrees after the sprayfoam job is complete, I feel the skin temperature on the foam should be 80 degrees(or whatever temp the attic is). If the skin is warmer, then we haven't stopped the heat. I've shot them after the foam is installed and found it to be equal to 3 degrees warmer than attic temp.
So, I have a man that wants 2-lb closed cell installed on his roofline. (It's HIS house) I'm bidding against 2 other insulation companies and they are telling him 2" is enough. I'm telling him it needs to be 3"(around an R-20). 2" will change his house, but it isn't what it needs to be. We're looking at around 90-100 degree spread in temp.
I haven't installed closed cell on a shingled roofline before. I don't like the fact of it being a moisture barrier and if he had a leak, he wouldn't know it until his roofline fell in at that spot.
But,we always install 2" c.c.in floors on houses on piers as a moisture barrier.
I'm asking for comments on that temp spread.

mason

Posted: Jul 18, 2013 12:43 PM

I had a sprayfoam business for 8 years in South Texas, (South Padre Island) and did work in the area for over 20 years. I still go back each year and own a condo on the island. My brother is an architect based out of Los Fresnos. I found that 3 inches of closed cell to the underside of the roof worked well, 2 inches not quite enough. But if you are spraying to code, you need 4 to 4.5 inches of closed cell and 7-8 inches of open cell to reach an R 30.

Open cell ranges from 3.5 to 4.1 per inch and closed cell from 6.1 to 6.8 per inch.

By the way it is a myth that you would not notice a roof leak with closed cell foam. In fact we used the closed cell foam to help stop potential roof leaks by sealing in cracks next to flashing and penetrations. See my article on sprayfoam myths at my website, masonknowles.com

mark moyer

Posted: Jul 19, 2013 10:40 PM

welcome to the world of spray foam contracting...
so you have a choice,,,compromise your inegrity like the folks bidding against you and bid cheap to get "the job"...
to hell for our industries integrity or yours for that matter its just about the money they make and the money the salesman made pushin these crapheads...
educate the customer as best you can,,,or not,,,cheap begets cheap,,,give him what he deserves maybe,,,clear your head and walk away,,you will not get this work he just wants cheap even if its wrong...
in the past i have spent many hours educating beleiveing it is the right thing to do...in the end,,my lips hurt and cheap still prevailed ,,,,,,anymore i dont waste my time
you cant install half as much and expect twice as much,,,
do the right thing and your reputation for such will reap you many benifits,,,learn to seperate yourself from the battles that arent advantagous to your time and resourses...
,im with you on the oc application,,,but i like10",,,r40,,,my costs are good,,physics is physics,,,i have no failures,,,i have many happy customers,,,my supplier luvs my azz,,

mark moyer

Posted: Jul 19, 2013 10:40 PM

Cory Boehs

Posted: Jul 21, 2013 03:47 PM

Go get em, foam dude! I agree. I have learned an important lesson recently.... We are the professionals, therefore it is up to us to educate and use the right type of insulation at the right thickness. If they want cheap, they WILL be able to find the revolving base of contractors that just got their brand new to them foam rig that they got from the last contractor that couldn't make the killing that he thought he was going to. Sell yourself as the expert, do a good job, clean it up like it was your own, and your pricing becomes one of the details. If price is the biggest point, walk away. We are in our 6th year, and have seen quite a few contractors come and go. I recently heard some pricing of our competitors, and we are $.30 higher a square foot! Find the customers in your market that are looking for the best insulation out there, and figure out how to market to them. Leave the others to your competition. A lot of homeowners have no idea what their foam job should cost. That extra $500 that you are thinking of giving up usually will not make the difference. I just priced a house for a client, and was double of what he THOUGHT it would be. Clearly, we were out of his budget, but couldn't have got the whole house even if we cut all the labor, profit, and overhead out. We ended up spraying the bonus room only on that one. Understand that you won't get them all, but be willing to walk away if the client is only looking for price. Those are also the clients that will cause 80% of your headaches.....

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