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richard sucher II Posted: May 28, 2008 12:23 PM	.5 Soy based foam systems Need names of manufacturers of soy based foam systems. am aware of biobased - need other suppliers and contact numbers if possible. Am not currently spraying any soy foam products but want to investigate what options are out there for these type of products. Thanks for assistance.
clint moore Posted: May 28, 2008 03:20 PM	Try David Kang at Soyol,254-246-1808
richard sucher II Posted: May 30, 2008 12:02 PM	have talked to david and am working to learn more about his system. we are in des moines - where are you located. are you spraying their system. if we are close, could we come to you and watch/ask questions. would rather observe in the field instead of going to volga for one day lab site visit. want to see product being installed in the field and talk to applicators about product. what do you think. thanks.
Posted: May 30, 2008 07:58 PM	I have sprayed about 10 sets of agribalance from demilec. great product, yield sucks compared to their petro resin, a lot less problematic than soy therm or biobased. just my opinion but have not sprayed either bio or soytherm lately.
richard sucher II Posted: May 30, 2008 09:16 PM	thanks for response. where are you located - looking for sprayers in midwest that we might visit and see foam in action. will look into agribalance - is it soy based or what. on yields, what are you getting with this product. not familiar with petro resin - will look into that system as well. we have been in business since 1979 and are currently spraying basf 78 two pound and ncfi insulstar and sealite half pound. getting some questions about soy - only reason that we are investigating these systems. have been to two demos - one in princeton , ill and one in decatur , nebraska. came away shaking our heads about inconsistencies of products. do not need to be guinea pigs. thanks for info - any other thots would be helpful.
Luke Kujacznski Posted: Jun 01, 2008 09:48 PM	Cobb, I would be very careful with the bio foams. They are great in theory but tend to sub perform in application. I have first hand experience with one of the major companies out there and I will not name names but the cost me a lot of money and business. The foams tend to be inconsistent and problematic. I have had a lot of request lately as well and so my partner and I did a lot of research on exactly how much Bio product was in the foams. It is a lot less then they lead you to believe and in the long run a petro foam that has a higher r-value and better physical properties it isn't hard to show a customer that a bio product is not always the smartest choice. Luke
richard sucher II Posted: Jun 01, 2008 10:42 PM	Amen - We have been in business since 1979. If we were not getting specific requests from Owners about soy foam, we would not even be looking at them. Have been to two demos and came away shaking our heads. We are spraying NCFI "Sealite" open celled foam and have been happy with the product. Prefer closed cell material such as "Insulstar" or BASF Foam Enterprises. The technical support is great and application problems are minimal. Will proceed with caution and will advise particular Owner as to the pitfalls of the product that they are asking us to spray. Will cover our butts or walk away. Thanks again.
Posted: Jun 02, 2008 09:02 PM	Who are these customers who want foam? Mostly single homes, with eco conscious buyers? Brian www.roofcrafterswest.com
Luke Kujacznski Posted: Jun 02, 2008 10:19 PM	Brian, They tend to be that type of buyer. Builders tend to stick with the known and what they are used to. The last thing that they need is more liability. Call me if you have any more questions. Luke 269.217.1612
Jim Coler Posted: Jun 25, 2008 09:30 AM	Interesting that you are making comments about BioBased without trying it. I personally have sprayed it and it sprays fine. Much of it depends on who is spraying it and the gun conditions - just like any other foam. As afr as the soy content, if it was all soy oil, then it would just run out of your walls like cooking oil. So, don't knock the soy content until you understand what it's doing. Agreed, that there are some companies out there who are making false claims at 30-60% soy content and it's just wrong. From a chemical composition standpoint, to get over the 50% mark, at least some of the ISO would have to be made from soy and that hasn't happened to date. In reality, some are claiming 15-20% but they are basing it on the polyol content which is only 5-10% soy content. So, 10% soy content of 20% of the B side is 2%. There are some whihc have 99%+ soy based polyol and then you start getting the higher content. Either way, you have to start somewhere and it's a process of developing the technology in phases. The car you drive is nothing like the Model T with teh current safety features and in today's world, a Model T would not meet the current safety or even technology standards required now.
Luke Kujacznski Posted: Jul 01, 2008 10:22 PM	I have tried bio based foams. we sprayed them for over a year.... and then spent the next two years in a legal dispute with one of the supplies because of the horrible foam they sold us. So I speak from experience. Luke
Jim Coler Posted: Jul 02, 2008 11:33 PM	OK, you used the term "biobased" and I used the name "BioBased" There is commonly a difference out there between some who claim to be "biobased" and the original BioBased. I too have seen some issues with the "biobased foams out there but I've had good results with BioBased. So, who was the company had poor results so I know to stay away or at least be more weary about them?
Curtis Bell Posted: Aug 01, 2008 02:59 PM	Look into Apex Earthseal. Its an american grow Bio foam but not soy based. Ive had good luck with Apex yields, actually i think they might be "sandbagging" their yeild figures. LoL! :)
Steve Shaw Posted: Aug 03, 2008 10:26 AM	I hope everyone out there can stop and realise that almost all foam systems currently being made have some content of "BIOBASED" in them. Most foam systems use beet sugars and can sugars in the B side. No foam system can be more than 48% BIOBASED as the other 50% and 2%+/- are the Iso Side and the rest of the chemical components of the b side. Ask one of the BIOBASED manufactuerers to give you the percent of BIOBASED material in thier system in writing. ALso I am not knocking the marketing strategy of the SOY based foam systems. Customers can relate to the words this helps you sell product. But thier are way to sell a better product to the SOY foam market. Information is the key. Steve Shaw
Posted: Aug 09, 2008 01:21 AM	Soy based foams are a joke.
Jim Coler Posted: Aug 11, 2008 11:46 AM	sprayguru - you must be from canada - huh-ay? I have to agree with you partly that some soy based foams are a joke in that they contain 1-2% soy content and call it soy based, but there are some which blw these away and are really soy based and work well. Correction about soy content: No foam has the 48% soy content. In fact, most technologies use a soy based or agricultural based polyol which is only about 30-60% of the entire B material - this makes it 15-30% of the entire mixture (A+B). To my knowledge, there is no polyol with 100% agricultural base but there is at least one of them with over 90-95% agricultural base. Most of them are only about 10% agricultural based polyols which means that it's 3% agricultural based total. The fed government was thinking about getting involved and setting a Biobased standard, but I don't know where that stands. I heard it was going to be 10% min overall content, but they bocked at it because too few could meet the standard. I agree - ask the right questions and you'll be able to see through most of the lies. Anything over 20-30% at this point is using funky math skills to reach the number they want. As far as it being a joke, I've lost jobs to the BioBased and tried spraying it and it sprayed well.

Author

Comments

richard sucher II

Posted: May 28, 2008 12:23 PM

.5 Soy based foam systems

Need names of manufacturers of soy based foam systems. am aware of biobased - need other suppliers and contact numbers if possible. Am not currently spraying any soy foam products but want to investigate what options are out there for these type of products. Thanks for assistance.

clint moore

Posted: May 28, 2008 03:20 PM

Try David Kang at Soyol,254-246-1808

richard sucher II

Posted: May 30, 2008 12:02 PM

have talked to david and am working to learn more about his system. we are in des moines - where are you located. are you spraying their system. if we are close, could we come to you and watch/ask questions. would rather observe in the field instead of going to volga for one day lab site visit. want to see product being installed in the field and talk to applicators about product. what do you think. thanks.

Posted: May 30, 2008 07:58 PM

I have sprayed about 10 sets of agribalance from demilec. great product, yield sucks compared to their petro resin, a lot less problematic than soy therm or biobased. just my opinion but have not sprayed either bio or soytherm lately.

richard sucher II

Posted: May 30, 2008 09:16 PM

thanks for response. where are you located - looking for sprayers in midwest that we might visit and see foam in action. will look into agribalance - is it soy based or what. on yields, what are you getting with this product. not familiar with petro resin - will look into that system as well. we have been in business since 1979 and are currently spraying basf 78 two pound and ncfi insulstar and sealite half pound. getting some questions about soy - only reason that we are investigating these systems. have been to two demos - one in princeton , ill and one in decatur , nebraska. came away shaking our heads about inconsistencies of products. do not need to be guinea pigs. thanks for info - any other thots would be helpful.

Luke Kujacznski

Posted: Jun 01, 2008 09:48 PM

Cobb,

I would be very careful with the bio foams. They are great in theory but tend to sub perform in application. I have first hand experience with one of the major companies out there and I will not name names but the cost me a lot of money and business. The foams tend to be inconsistent and problematic. I have had a lot of request lately as well and so my partner and I did a lot of research on exactly how much Bio product was in the foams. It is a lot less then they lead you to believe and in the long run a petro foam that has a higher r-value and better physical properties it isn't hard to show a customer that a bio product is not always the smartest choice.

Luke

richard sucher II

Posted: Jun 01, 2008 10:42 PM

Amen - We have been in business since 1979. If we were not getting specific requests from Owners about soy foam, we would not even be looking at them. Have been to two demos and came away shaking our heads. We are spraying NCFI "Sealite" open celled foam and have been happy with the product. Prefer closed cell material such as "Insulstar" or BASF Foam Enterprises. The technical support is great and application problems are minimal.
Will proceed with caution and will advise particular Owner as to the pitfalls of the product that they are asking us to spray. Will cover our butts or walk away. Thanks again.

Posted: Jun 02, 2008 09:02 PM

Who are these customers who want foam?

Mostly single homes, with eco conscious buyers?

Brian
www.roofcrafterswest.com

Luke Kujacznski

Posted: Jun 02, 2008 10:19 PM

Brian,

They tend to be that type of buyer. Builders tend to stick with the known and what they are used to. The last thing that they need is more liability.

Call me if you have any more questions.

Luke
269.217.1612

Jim Coler

Posted: Jun 25, 2008 09:30 AM

Interesting that you are making comments about BioBased without trying it. I personally have sprayed it and it sprays fine. Much of it depends on who is spraying it and the gun conditions - just like any other foam.

As afr as the soy content, if it was all soy oil, then it would just run out of your walls like cooking oil. So, don't knock the soy content until you understand what it's doing. Agreed, that there are some companies out there who are making false claims at 30-60% soy content and it's just wrong. From a chemical composition standpoint, to get over the 50% mark, at least some of the ISO would have to be made from soy and that hasn't happened to date. In reality, some are claiming 15-20% but they are basing it on the polyol content which is only 5-10% soy content. So, 10% soy content of 20% of the B side is 2%. There are some whihc have 99%+ soy based polyol and then you start getting the higher content. Either way, you have to start somewhere and it's a process of developing the technology in phases. The car you drive is nothing like the Model T with teh current safety features and in today's world, a Model T would not meet the current safety or even technology standards required now.

Luke Kujacznski

Posted: Jul 01, 2008 10:22 PM

I have tried bio based foams. we sprayed them for over a year.... and then spent the next two years in a legal dispute with one of the supplies because of the horrible foam they sold us. So I speak from experience.

Luke

Jim Coler

Posted: Jul 02, 2008 11:33 PM

OK, you used the term "biobased" and I used the name "BioBased" There is commonly a difference out there between some who claim to be "biobased" and the original BioBased. I too have seen some issues with the "biobased foams out there but I've had good results with BioBased. So, who was the company had poor results so I know to stay away or at least be more weary about them?

Curtis Bell

Posted: Aug 01, 2008 02:59 PM

Look into Apex Earthseal. Its an american grow Bio foam but not soy based. Ive had good luck with Apex yields, actually i think they might be "sandbagging" their yeild figures. LoL! :)

Steve Shaw

Posted: Aug 03, 2008 10:26 AM

I hope everyone out there can stop and realise that almost all foam systems currently being made have some content of "BIOBASED" in them. Most foam systems use beet sugars and can sugars in the B side. No foam system can be more than 48% BIOBASED as the other 50% and 2%+/- are the Iso Side and the rest of the chemical components of the b side. Ask one of the BIOBASED manufactuerers to give you the percent of BIOBASED material in thier system in writing. ALso I am not knocking the marketing strategy of the SOY based foam systems. Customers can relate to the words this helps you sell product. But thier are way to sell a better product to the SOY foam market. Information is the key.

Steve Shaw

Posted: Aug 09, 2008 01:21 AM

Soy based foams are a joke.

Jim Coler

Posted: Aug 11, 2008 11:46 AM

sprayguru - you must be from canada - huh-ay?
I have to agree with you partly that some soy based foams are a joke in that they contain 1-2% soy content and call it soy based, but there are some which blw these away and are really soy based and work well.

Correction about soy content: No foam has the 48% soy content. In fact, most technologies use a soy based or agricultural based polyol which is only about 30-60% of the entire B material - this makes it 15-30% of the entire mixture (A+B). To my knowledge, there is no polyol with 100% agricultural base but there is at least one of them with over 90-95% agricultural base. Most of them are only about 10% agricultural based polyols which means that it's 3% agricultural based total. The fed government was thinking about getting involved and setting a Biobased standard, but I don't know where that stands. I heard it was going to be 10% min overall content, but they bocked at it because too few could meet the standard. I agree - ask the right questions and you'll be able to see through most of the lies. Anything over 20-30% at this point is using funky math skills to reach the number they want.

As far as it being a joke, I've lost jobs to the BioBased and tried spraying it and it sprayed well.

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