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Colin Martens Posted: Apr 11, 2011 08:18 AM	All and Any Advice Welcome I'm a General Contractor in Northern Ontario, Can. looking to get into the SF Bus. I think I've read just about every post on this site trying to gain knowledge of the industry. I must admit a lot of the griping about profit margins and tech issues is a little discouraging but regards I believe in the product and see a growing future for this sector, especially in my climate. I am looking for any advice from: particularly, but not limited to Canadian installers regarding appropriate equipment to use in cold climate. I'm leaning towards the H25 or E30 but I'm a little stumped on the what type of addition components to purchase (re:Amp,PSI,CFM etc). Also I'm interested in what SP supplier you recommend (Canadian) and why? Just as some background, I've been awarded a fair size insulation upgrade project where the SP portion, if I were to sub out total 100K+. If I get set up and train myself the gear should about pay for itself. I've budgeted 50K for the rig. I know it's a little tight but if I build it myself it certainly isn't unreasonable.
steven argus Posted: Apr 11, 2011 02:59 PM	100k job is too big a risk for your first job. Start off with a 1k crawlspace. Even a seasoned pro finds it hard to turn a profit this day and age, espesially on a 100k job. We shoot for a set a day to hopefully turn a profit, new guys just can't do that much foam in a day. We all whine about small margins for a reason, its tough out there. -50k is a very tight buget. -go with the H25. How about if you sub out the foam to an out of town contractor and work w/ him, get your feet wet.
quentin Posted: Apr 11, 2011 03:23 PM	guiness is right on starting out that big! When starting off you can plan on a lot of waste and extra time spent learning control and more. As for a supplier, you may want to look up Henry Permax. They are a Canadian company and I have been using their products here in the US. They may even be able to get you in touch with a couple of good contractors where you are. Being a GC it may be better to do a stratigic partnership with a good foam company instead. Yeah, it can be a good business but I can't picture trying to run this and doing anything else at the same time.
Colin Martens Posted: Apr 11, 2011 03:38 PM	Granted, it's a big job but not a difficult one. In my opinion it's a perfect one to learn on. We're pulling of the sheathing on a 13000sqft building and spraying the attic floor and some cathedral ceilings all from above. No overhead work, nothing's being boarded over doesn't have to be neat. The price I submitted was $9/sqft@R40. If I can't make money on this than I'll give my gear away. I am considering paying a pro to show me the ropes for a while though. No courses or online forum is going to come close to teaching me how to spray and work efficiently. I'm also going to start contacting other (non competing) companies to see if I can shadow for a bit.
steven argus Posted: Apr 11, 2011 07:27 PM	Also, I personaly don't believe foam is a business you can do part time. The equipment likes to run everyday. Park it for a week and the problems start poping up. You should be OK @ $9/SF. (I assume its CC) Just be careful not to spray too much at a time. Figure on 3 times around the attic. If you want to talk pricing, send me a personal message. I don't believe a public forum is the place to talk pricing. If you decide to go through with it, tu tienes muchos grandes huavos! LOL Look up dl123, he's a Canadian and he loves to help out new guys.
Colin Martens Posted: Apr 11, 2011 08:11 PM	Agreed, once things start to take off this will be a full time gig. Thanks for the help. I think I'll leave dl123 alone. From a lot of post I've read of his, he can be a little moody;)
steven argus Posted: Apr 11, 2011 09:48 PM	You should consider attending George's conference. North East Spray Foam Conference. www.sprayfoamsupply.com/conference. May 9th thru 12th. We will be there. George has gotten us out of countless jams. He knows Graco like I know NASCAR. We buy all our gear from George, always have, always will. I'm sure he doesn't mind selling gear to Canadians. LOL Mason will be there to offer the SPFA accreditation courses. I highly reccommend attending.
quentin Posted: Apr 12, 2011 09:59 AM	If you are interested I am thinking of renting out my rig since I am down with a medical issue making doing anything hard at the moment. Just had to fire one guy out of my two since he was destroying equipment not paying attention. Put me up someplace and toss me a few bucks and I will even help you out. I just can't spend all day spraying and etc like I need to do and couldn't be there the entire job most likely. Just a few days to help you get rolling and then play phone support if you need.
steven argus Posted: Apr 12, 2011 11:52 AM	Q, that's a very generous offer! CM, take full advantage of this offer and take care of Quentin. Q, hope you feel better.
Posted: Apr 12, 2011 08:34 PM	we grow to like our e-30 more and more,, it is a fine wall machine...easy diagnostics we do not care for it for over head,,high output kinda work,,,you gotta use the smaller chambers,, lots of guys have said you should pay now so you dont have a pile of poody later,,,so,, for a bit more h-40 3ph 60kw (80k?) genset 3ph duh since you gonna need lots of power for heat,,processing and environmental,, 7.5 rotary screw with approp air dryer(yes a 5 would do,,but like boobles,,bigger,,,no but serious,,ever run an air or 2 stirrer and a quickplane and 4 xfer pumps and the air purge,,,bigger da better,, h-40 supports 410ft hose,,e-30,,h-25 310 ft packages come with 50 ft and a whip,,more hose costs more bucks,,so does scuff gaurd,,so does duct tape,, 2 minimum,,,i would have 4,, xfer pumps... then your gun or two,,, band heaters maybe 4 electric or air stirrer,,02,,but with the 7.5 screw id go air,,, now you havent got your plumbing and hose and electrical supplies to rough it in,,, but you'd have the equipment to get er done... oh yeah,,and then theres the truck,,or trailer,,or both,,
Posted: Apr 13, 2011 08:42 AM	We are builders from western canada still trying to learn as much about industry and equipment before we jump. This forum has been a huge help for us, bookmark it and come back daily. Sometimes too much gripping here, but the learning couldn't be better. We spend a lot of time online searching for resources and information to help us learn, and hopefully to help us sell jobs when we get going. Building science type stuff. Just found a good basic equipment site we learned a bunch from called www.washingtonfoamequipment.com. Seemed legit, we learned a lot about rig options, maybe this would help you understand all the model names and numbers the experienced guys on this forum are throwing around?? Good luck.
Colin Martens Posted: Apr 13, 2011 08:23 PM	Just wanted to started out by thanking you guys for your help. There are endless people here kicking the tires, asking ridiculous questions without doing an ounce of homework and looking for easy answers. Regardless most of you remain supportive. I was overwhelmed by Quentins offer and look forward to talking to him soon. (Did you get my PM?) Guiness, thanks of the input, nice try trying to set me up with dl123. That was a trap if I'd ever seen one:) I'm definitely going to check out George's Conference. Gotta see how gorgeous he is. So one more question? I have at wicked 25kw generator now. Is there a rig config I could put together that would run off this? I'm thinking everything on 3phase and maybe a gas comp? If I could make this work it will save me $18k or so.
Circle-D Posted: Apr 13, 2011 09:03 PM	dude and the other big guns You guys that run 3 phase equipment, do you also need a phase converter to get the power for the trailer. Recepticles, lights, heaters saws and the other needed stuff. Thinking of purchasing a new machine with bigger heaters and will need 3-phase. I orginally planned on staying single phase so I could also have the ability to plug my existing shore powered, single phase Guardian into the generator if we needed 2 rigs at a powerless site. My generator can be either single or 3 phase. but I'm sure not both. Is there a way to get 3 phase to the new equipment and still have enough power to use a single phase unit also?
Posted: Apr 13, 2011 09:36 PM	If you are 220 Three phase like my rig, you can grab two legs off of the three phase and a ground and run a seperate single phase 220 breaker box. Once you are there, you can break it down to 115v easy. Every now and then, someone screws with my generator and flips the switch to 480 and all hell breaks loose. My flourescent lights hate 480, not to mention my single phase air compressor and mother board on the gama. I love my three phase. Next time I change air compressors, I going three phase as well.
quentin Posted: Apr 14, 2011 09:59 AM	Nope, didin't get any messages. You can email me at Quentin@foamdogs.com or toss me a call or text at 937-478-4818
Daniel X Posted: Apr 16, 2011 02:43 PM	When I read about your $100k job as your first I thought you were crazy, when I read it was an attic, I still thought you were crazy, just a little less crazy... You need to do at least a little fooling around with foam in different situations to see how it works and learn your equipment before you go spraying 7" in an attic... The problem though is that if you put up the money for the equipment, you need to keep the juices flowing through your machine and hose, or you're going to have problems.... Where are you located?
Colin Martens Posted: Apr 16, 2011 06:26 PM	The job is in Bracebridge Ont, about 2hrs North of Toronto. I have the contract to basically remove 13,000 sqft of roof (sheathing and insulation), install R40cc and put back together. I am the GC so schedule is not an issue. The work will be phased by replacing small portions at a time so as not the leave the roof exposed to the elements. About 40% is cathedral ceiling and the rest attic space, all to be sprayed from above. My biggest concern is exactly what you said dl, equipment operation and maintenance. I know I'll need someone one site for the first week or two to teach me and my men the guts of the rig and how to maintain it. Other basic quality is important too eg, bond, mix ratio, thickness etc. The project will be reviewed by consultant (Trow Engineering).
Daniel X Posted: Apr 16, 2011 06:42 PM	Adhesion wont be an issue so long as your substrate isn't allowed to get wet, what is the existing insulation? I hope you're not dealing with vermiculite... Sounds like you have a handle on it, what is the new roofing material?
Colin Martens Posted: Apr 17, 2011 05:59 AM	No vermiculate, pink in the cathedral and blown in, in the attic spaces. That's going to be a pain to remove. No company's will travel that far to suck it out so we'll have to make something up ourselves. I've heard of guys using reversible leaf blowers. Otherwise it'll have to be bags & shovels. The new roof will be 5/8spr, blueskin throughout and asphalt shingles. Btw, where in Canada are you dl?
steven argus Posted: Apr 17, 2011 08:29 AM	look into renting/ buying a versa vac. You can vac it up and blow it right into a dumpster. Or you can blow it in the attic above the foam. It will be worth it for a job this size.
quentin Posted: Apr 17, 2011 11:10 AM	We found a cyclone rake at a garage sale for cheap and it works great for dealing with the old insulation and also blowing it to where you want. A now gone employee forgot to put oil in it and another piece of gear so we are working on putting new motors in it but that thing worked great. Things it helped with are you will want a large tube of at least 6 in in diameter and a LOT of air flow. A normal leaf vac works for small spots but something like that you can add tubing to and with a lot more flow really speeds things up.
John Shockney Posted: Apr 17, 2011 12:45 PM	We have found that a 4inch portable dust collector ($100-150 from Harbor Freight) works great because like water it is easier to push the cellulose through a hose than to suck it long distances. Also we have taken two of these in a push-pull setup to move the material farther I use cheap 4inch corrugated drain pipe for this and it works great. You will want to remove the screens that are in the inlet and outlet on the dust collector, and if you need something bigger you could go to a larger dust collector like the Grizzly. Airpro
maurice richter Posted: Apr 17, 2011 07:35 PM	Removing the old insulation: I'm wondering about a "trac-vac" or "billy goat" type yard vac. I'm looking to buy a used one to try.
Yvan Richard Posted: Jun 11, 2011 01:40 AM	How is your rig coming along? I saw your thread and I put my rig together on a very tight budget in a 16ft trailer with a 30kw genset, 18 cfm compressor, and can hold twosets. Make sure a 25kw genset can handle 260ft. of heated hose. You will then be able to handle any job. If you are still looking for a rig let me know as I am thinking of getting out of spf.
maurice richter Posted: Jun 27, 2011 07:50 PM	I DID get a used billy goat and converted the square output to 6" round. Added 25' of black corrugated tube, then covered the parking lot sweeper slot. The intake already had a 4" hole which a 4" corrugated tube fits perfect (20'). Ran it about half throttle, as I pulled off old clapboards I'd point the 4" tube into the blown in cellulose with the 6" tube into the attic. Worked fantastic! I suspect it would pull/push much farther. I've later found that newer billy goats have round outputs. If my spray contractor is reading, I still have more work to do to get ready for you to spray!
Tyler Boehs Posted: Jan 19, 2012 10:07 PM	Yep, what foamdude said!! Bigger is always better. That 25 kw genset would have me worried. It's all our 40 kw can do to run our H-40 and 40 cfm rotary screw comp. Also your $50k budget is going to be awful skinny, even considering building it yourself. Unless you use used equipment which I would NOT recommend for a beginner. Good Luck tho,