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Circle-D Posted: Mar 17, 2008 04:22 PM	Best way to retrofit I built my own home 20 years or so ago, before my knowledge of foam insulation. I now wish to install foam and have been pondering the ways to do this. None are easier or more econmical than another. I am hoping to garnish the thoughts of the veterans here. I have the typical 2x6 construction with filterglass in the walls. I really don't want to tear the inside all to pieces while trying to remain living there. My thoughts are to remove the vinyl siding and sheathing, remove the filterglass and spray from the outside, against the interior walls, replace the sheathing and siding. Questions: Obviously I won't be spraying 5 1/2" of closed cell foam to fill the cavity. What problems are going to arise from the "dead air space" that will remain? This will be on the cold side of the insulation.Typically, in this area of the country we normally install 3". Would going to 4" be better in this case? I am thinking of leaving the paper from the filterglass in the cavity. This would keep the foam from bonding to the interior sheating in case of future interior remodeling. Would this be asking for trouble? What is the most reasonable solution for the walls? The daylight basement has never been finished so there it is simple to just remove the filterglass and spray against the exterior wall, as it should be. On to the roof. Some of it is cathedral ceiling finished with v-match pine. Upstairs has 1/2 cathedral ceiling going to a flat ceiling at the 8' elevation. The roof is 2x10, with proper-vent, 6" filterglass and a layer of reflectix, that bubble wrap with foil on both sides. The asphalt shingles on the exterior are nearing the end of their lifespan and need to be replaced anyway. My thoughts here were to remove the shingles, sheathing and filterglass and replace with closed cell foam. Obviously again I will not be filling the 9 1/4" space with foam. My questions: Should I leave the ventilation open above the foam or seal the ridge and eave and leave a dead unventilated space above the foam? How about leaving the reflectix in place for ease of future interior remodeling? Normally we spray directly to the underside of the roof deck but this would mean major destruction on the interior. I would like to replace the finish roof with standing seam metal over the sheathing. This would be a dark bronze color, possibly causing some heat issues in the summer. What are some of your opinions. I have been watching the "Attic Retrofit question" thread posted by GreenBuilder, as he describes a very similar scenario. The differnce being, I am going to remove all the filterglass, where as he was just working above the flat spot. It is going to be about equal work whether you redo the inside or the outside. They both have there pros and cons. The difference is in the convienence of living during the process. What am I going to lose in end performance as opposed to gaining in convienence? Any thoughts???? Thanks for sharing them with me.
Ryan Slagel Posted: Mar 17, 2008 10:13 PM	Circle-D , why dont you try RETRO FOAM , it is similar to urethane, but it is a tripolymer, looks like shaving cream. Great stuff though. Just a thought. WWW.Retrofoam.com
Luke Kujacznski Posted: Mar 18, 2008 09:40 AM	Insulsmart is a much better product, I use it and have had great success. Call me if you want to know more. 269.217.1612 WWW.CFIFOAM.COM
Ryan Slagel Posted: Mar 18, 2008 04:13 PM	Now come on Luke, Read the facts and realize they are compairable products, One is not better then the other. It is merly personal prefrence. Core Fill and Polymaster(Retro Foam), are the two major commericial, block insulation sppecialist. With the top products out on the market. the only major differences are how they are mixed. One comes in drums(corefill) and the other in bags, to mix when needed. I am not oh here to make sales. So Circle-D , i would just ckeck out both products see what you like better, and see who can provide the service for you or maybe you can start youre own. Just putting ideas out there. So here is the contact For <Polymaster-RetroFoam> Robert Fox Polymaster, Inc. (800) 580-3626 (865) 250-8844 cell rob@polymaster.com
Circle-D Posted: Mar 18, 2008 09:42 PM	I've been mulling this over for quite some time. I checked into the retro-foam before. They wanted quite a chunk of change to get started and the nearest intaller was 300 miles away. I own the equipment for our type of foam and can do it for material costs. How do you know you are getting complete penetration and fill when you are going "blind". Won't the filterglass keep you from achieving this? I will revisit the retro-foam idea and also check out the other product. Thank you for your responses. Any others?
Tim O'Keefe Posted: Mar 18, 2008 11:12 PM	Retro foam is supposed to displace whatever is there already as it is installed a a pre-expanded foam. If you didn't live so far up in the sticks maybe you would have better luck with a local contractor! Hehe! Tim Granite State Spray Foam Co.
Ryan Slagel Posted: Mar 19, 2008 12:03 PM	Circle-D There is a short video on retro foam that shows you how the foam Compresses the batt insulation that is already installed. As Far as the install,You usually have a timed process, like a count down or you can fill it by sound, you can hear poping and cracking.(not Bad)Its just the sound of everything getting tight.These polymer foams, Or you could do it the easy way and just go to Polymasters, Retro foam school. I have been injecting Polymer Foams, from Polymaster, for almost 10yrs now and are great products. I hope you find what your looking for.
Luke Kujacznski Posted: Mar 19, 2008 08:57 PM	They are both great foams as long as they installed correctly. I am a big retrofoam fan I used to install it, i have done both and I just like CFI Foam as a company better. Northwest didn't mean to come across like that just some friendly rivalry. Would like to pick your brain a little if you want and see if a midwesterner could learn anything from a northwesterner. 269.217.1612
Ryan Slagel Posted: Mar 19, 2008 09:18 PM	Hey luke, Your fine, i just wanted to make sure that Circle-D new that they are similar products. And i will try and give u a ring tomorrow.... Northwestern Polymaster Ryan
Ryan Slagel Posted: Mar 23, 2008 09:40 PM	Hey luke, I gave you a buzz the other day, U didnt answer?? Well give me a ring if u still wanted to trade info. Ryan 208-830-2200
John Shockney Posted: Mar 23, 2008 10:12 PM	The short answer is, YES, you can spray foam from the outside onto the drywall. You will have to remove the fiberglass, you can leave or remove the vapor barrier. I would full fill the space with open cell foam, or you could spray a 1-2inches of closed cell and fill the rest with open cell. This would place the vapor barrier on the inside of the wall. hope this helps thanks John Airpro Sprap Foam
Luke Kujacznski Posted: Mar 23, 2008 10:23 PM	I will give you a call tomorrow. We were slammed last week and I couldn't get free. Luke
Posted: Apr 03, 2008 08:43 PM	I currently have a RetroFoam related question/situation and would like some input. I've been in the process of insulating and trying to sound proof (main goal) an up/down style duplex. This all brick (8" masonry) real wood (no press board beauty) built in 1950 with 2x10 floor joists needed its empty cavities filled. Believing in science and the power of polymer expansion foam I felt that the foam solution was the best choice. Only half the flat was completed due to a verticle board running the length of the load bearing wall blocking the space to the other half of the house. The application seemed to go very smoothly and yes is sure did look like shaving cream billowing through the spaces in the subfloor of my gutted kitchen. As it cured during the first few days I enjoyed the reduction in noise that had occured because it seemed to fill every possible piece of dead space. I then left on business and after returing after a few weeks noiced it was a bit louder than I had remembered and upon investingcation in the gutted kitchen area I noticed that the foam had shrunk back in volume by at least an 1" or more on the three visible sides. Clearly I am not happy about this but I am meerly looking for realistic and probable solutions to my current situation. Any advise is greatly appreciated. Sincerely, MrZ
D. Backes Posted: Apr 03, 2008 09:15 PM	Both Polymaster (Retrofit) and CoreFoam latex foams will shrink typically 2%-4%. I used to install the Poly brand foam. I found it to be a bit finicky. If the ratio is off slightly it could disappear either quickly or over a longer period of time. I never was confident in the product. That being said, I never used the CoreFoam and supposedly they have the initial shrinkage down to less than 2%. I'll admit I haven't used the stuff in 5 years and maybe they perfected it ( I doubt it). It definitely has it's uses and I would prefer it over the slow rise urethanes due to cost and the fact that a slight shrinkage is acceptable - as long as the ratio was right it shouldn't shrink that much. Something in the walls is better than nothing I think.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Apr 04, 2008 09:59 AM	Pneumatic Cellulose is a viable option for the floor joists. Pack to a 3.5 lb ft³ density and you will be good to go. olger
Posted: Apr 04, 2008 12:09 PM	BigD: Thanks for the input. In this case the mix must have been way off because a 1" shrinkage on the (left, right and top side of the cavity) in a 15" x 10" floor joist cavity is roughly a 20% shrinkage in volume. I am wondering about the possibility to incert a corrugated metal tube with a 3/4" OD to refoam in an effort to seal up the empty space. The contractor is stating that trying to refoam with a small bore metal tube will (break down the polymer) and not work. Any thoughts? I am also looking into a corrugated metal hose to suck out the foam and start all over with Pneumatic Cellulose as suggested by olger. Is this a special type of cellulose product or will any brand do the trick? I appreciate all the help on this matter as my ability to sound isolate the two units has a huge bearing on my material decisions for this refurb project. Thanks again, MrZ
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Apr 04, 2008 04:42 PM	Any insulation cellulose will work: Applegate AFT Cocoon, etc.. STC rating of cellulose is 44. Good luck. Sounds like a bit of a mess. oG
D. Backes Posted: Apr 06, 2008 12:13 PM	MrZ, I like cellulose in this situation providing there is enough depth in the cavity for proper material flow. Now that there is foam in the walls it's going to be real tough to remove it and then refill with cellulose. I think your contractor is right about the small tube being too small - it will break down the bubbles in the foam and you'll probably have a sticky milkshake-like mess flowing through your walls and everywhere else. One thing I remember with the polymaster was that if it dried out too fast (exposed to air) it would shrink too much also. Sorry you're having trouble. Again, this is one of many reasons I stopped installing this stuff. As a urethane applicator at least I can anticipate potential problems and If there is something wrong with the foam there is usually a dang good reason for it.
Posted: Apr 06, 2008 04:48 PM	BigD, Thanks for the input. The floor joist space between the upper and lower unit provides me with a 10" x 16" cavity to fill. Since only half of the job was completed with the RetroFoam product I will attempt to remove the insulation with a corrugated steel vacuum line. The weight of the line should aid it plowing though and breaking up the foam and enables me to use the existing 2 1/4 inch holes in the floor. Can you give me some insight into the proper questions to ask a potential contractor about filling this space with a cellulose and packing it to the proper density of 3.5lb/ft3 as suggested by Og? Any advice is appreciated as this is quite a big headache.
D. Backes Posted: Apr 07, 2008 11:04 AM	As long as the contractor has a big rig setup he should have a big enough machine that can inject the cellulose under enough pressure so that there aren't any voids. I don't know of any way to gauge the density on site. When we dense pack a wall or ceiling we fill it till it won't take no more. If Olger knows a way to field verify the density of cellulose, I'd love to know myself.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Apr 09, 2008 09:07 PM	Hi guys: Someday they will have a pocket-sized instrument that can measure the density of compressed cellulose. Until then, math & experience will suffice. When our Krendl 2000 blowers are set on 4, they yield a 3.5 ft³ density. More than that can cause the drywall to fail (pop through fasteners, and crack). have fun, oG