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Author	Comments
andy buff Posted: Sep 28, 2009 08:27 PM	flash & batt Mason Has the spfa come up with guidlines for doing the flash and batt in northern climate.Around here seems like 1/2 inch of foam and fibercrap is the winning the bid.and it sucks!!!
mason Posted: Sep 28, 2009 10:19 PM	They are still working on it. The key element is to make sure that there is enough foam to prevent condensation or to make darn sure that the vapor retarder over the fiberglass is intact and not compromised. My opinion is to go with the extra foam.
andy buff Posted: Sep 28, 2009 11:30 PM	yah me too
Posted: Sep 29, 2009 04:57 AM	skinny,,a few considerations,, when selling against a 1/2" flash and batt system i tell the customer "why bother",,,for what they are paying for 1/2" they get very little in additional r value when considered in the whole wall,,,they are getting an air seal at best,,,and the same performance results can be achieved with less expensive materials, thought, and time..... remember,,,an air seal system with closed cell foam depths of less than about 1.5-2" can realize condensate if the conditions are right to allow condensation...it dont matter whether the foam is in the wall or not,,,the saturated air lays down on the next hard surface it finds,,,sheeting,,foam,,,foundation,,whatever,,, this is a system failure,, most peeps who go to a flash and batt system wanted a full foam system to start...you just did not close the deal,,or get the chance to continue to educate them as to other options,,, the filterglass folks hear the word foam and then push the uninformed consumer to get an r19 cc quote,,,after they roll up their bottom lip the salesdude then suggests a flash and batt,,keeps em workin,,give em what they want (foam),,kinda,,,or make em think you are giving em what they want,,, and if you cant sell an r20 oc or mod oc system for the flash and batt costs to lock the deal and win the bid,,to beat the filterglass peep at his own game,,,then you didnt do your job right,,,and when they start selling against open cell,,remind the customer that any allegations against the oc foam systems shortcomings is magnified by the fibrous or cell systems,,physics is physics,,,tell em to come to this site and read a bit about the oc systems,,, the filterglass folks are buyin/aligning with the closed cell peeps,,,they are modifying their irc reports to allow cc foam in a BE only when used in conjunction with their bibs/batt systems,,,no mention of multidepth applications,,,(and they own the stuff now gettin it??) is the sky falling,,,not if your on the roof,,,lol... spfa guidelines,,,maybe we could coat the foam here as well,,,yeah,,thats the ticket...
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Sep 30, 2009 07:05 AM	Guys, The SPFA has considered endorsing F&B or F&F systems, but your input makes a difference. If you're a member of SPFA, then please put it in writing to Kurt and RIck Dunkin that you do not endorse F&B or F&F systems. These systems don't help our industry and it only leaves the door open for our industry to be hurt. The Low Density committee of SPFA voited unanimously to strongly oppose the endorsement of F&B/F&F systems after much discussion and debate. The SPF industry has nothing to gain by this technique and everything to loose. It will only take one or two jobs with failures in the system and the blame will be put on the foam. Then the lawyers will get involved and the FG lawyers have a much larger pool of monetary resources at their disposal then our industry. I personally oppose F&B/F&F systems as I've been told by "almost" customers who chose this method over full foam only to find water in their walls. I mean this literally. They called me looking for advice on how to deal with it. It's not a fun call to take and the situation doesn't look good for any of us! So, Again, I'm asking you to get involved in the SPFA because we can't let the FG manufacturers or their organizations run our industry Association (SPFA).

Author

Comments

andy buff

Posted: Sep 28, 2009 08:27 PM

flash & batt

Mason
Has the spfa come up with guidlines for doing the flash and batt in northern climate.Around here seems like 1/2 inch of foam and fibercrap is the winning the bid.and it sucks!!!

mason

Posted: Sep 28, 2009 10:19 PM

They are still working on it. The key element is to make sure that there is enough foam to prevent condensation or to make darn sure that the vapor retarder over the fiberglass is intact and not compromised. My opinion is to go with the extra foam.

andy buff

Posted: Sep 28, 2009 11:30 PM

yah me too

Posted: Sep 29, 2009 04:57 AM

skinny,,a few considerations,,
when selling against a 1/2" flash and batt system
i tell the customer "why bother",,,for what they are paying for 1/2" they get very little in additional r value when considered in the whole wall,,,they are getting an air seal at best,,,and the same performance results can be achieved with less expensive materials, thought, and time.....
remember,,,an air seal system with closed cell foam depths of less than about 1.5-2" can realize condensate if the conditions are right to allow condensation...it dont matter whether the foam is in the wall or not,,,the saturated air lays down on the next hard surface it finds,,,sheeting,,foam,,,foundation,,whatever,,,
this is a system failure,,
most peeps who go to a flash and batt system wanted a full foam system to start...you just did not close the deal,,or get the chance to continue to educate them as to other options,,,
the filterglass folks hear the word foam and then push the uninformed consumer to get an r19 cc quote,,,after they roll up their bottom lip the salesdude then suggests a flash and batt,,keeps em workin,,give em what they want (foam),,kinda,,,or make em think you are giving em what they want,,,
and if you cant sell an r20 oc or mod oc system for the flash and batt costs to lock the deal and win the bid,,to beat the filterglass peep at his own game,,,then you didnt do your job right,,,and when they start selling against open cell,,remind the customer that any allegations against the oc foam systems shortcomings is magnified by the fibrous or cell systems,,physics is physics,,,tell em to come to this site and read a bit about the oc systems,,,

the filterglass folks are buyin/aligning with the closed cell peeps,,,they are modifying their irc reports to allow cc foam in a BE only when used in conjunction with their bibs/batt systems,,,no mention of multidepth applications,,,(and they own the stuff now gettin it??)
is the sky falling,,,not if your on the roof,,,lol...

spfa guidelines,,,maybe we could coat the foam here as well,,,yeah,,thats the ticket...

jimcoler

I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs.

I've expanded my knowledge into t

Posted: Sep 30, 2009 07:05 AM

Guys, The SPFA has considered endorsing F&B or F&F systems, but your input makes a difference. If you're a member of SPFA, then please put it in writing to Kurt and RIck Dunkin that you do not endorse F&B or F&F systems. These systems don't help our industry and it only leaves the door open for our industry to be hurt. The Low Density committee of SPFA voited unanimously to strongly oppose the endorsement of F&B/F&F systems after much discussion and debate.

The SPF industry has nothing to gain by this technique and everything to loose. It will only take one or two jobs with failures in the system and the blame will be put on the foam. Then the lawyers will get involved and the FG lawyers have a much larger pool of monetary resources at their disposal then our industry.

I personally oppose F&B/F&F systems as I've been told by "almost" customers who chose this method over full foam only to find water in their walls. I mean this literally. They called me looking for advice on how to deal with it. It's not a fun call to take and the situation doesn't look good for any of us!

So, Again, I'm asking you to get involved in the SPFA because we can't let the FG manufacturers or their organizations run our industry Association (SPFA).

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