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Craig Gifford Posted: Feb 27, 2011 08:24 AM	Flash & Foil Is anyone familiar with the Flash & Foil system, is it cost effective...I looked at large project where it may be applicable, especially when considering an ignition barrier. I have sprayed all types of foam and only have read about the Flash & Foil system....has anyone used it?
Posted: Feb 28, 2011 09:30 AM	havent used it,,, is fufoil approved as an ib??ie:left exposed time to do some internet search me thinks,,, (carona opened,,,wheres that darned compuker??,,)
quentin Posted: Feb 28, 2011 11:08 AM	We have been using it lately and like it. No idea about the barrier part since it has all been used in walls where you get drywall over it but it works well. We also did one where there will be blown-in for the attic portion instead of foam like the rest of the house and we could feel a big difference as we were putting it up. I doubt it would be an IB though since it is craft paper and foil so plan on that still being required. Also Gene is a good guy from all our talks on the phone. Products cut easily, go up easily and you can make a simple cutting system to hold the rolls up and make cutting a lot easier with some scrap 2x4 and plywood like we did. Just make sure to keep your box knife with a sharp blade and go for it.
Craig Gifford Posted: Feb 28, 2011 12:07 PM	Thank you both for your input....much appreciated, it is nice to talk to people who have actually worked with it vs. relying on sales info. I called them direct and Quentin you are correct it is not considered an ignition barrier. The job I am pricing is for a very large attic (commercial/housing)...the client wants open cell & I am pricing several options for economic reasons. Underside of roof decking is applicable.
Posted: Mar 01, 2011 07:03 PM	Eman...it would be helpful to know where you are working.. there is some controversy as to the effectiveness of this system in the cold climate zones.... the thought it is much like a filterglass batt...warming the air space in front of the foam in the stud cavity.. and as we all know,,warm air holds more moisture the cool air,, so some camps(building science guru fella's) feel that the propensity for the incidence for condensation in the stud cavity is increased with this system in the cold climate zones when the appropriate climate/temp/humidity/environmental conditions arise,,,,,(much like flash and batt) they also feel this system works ok in the warmer climate area's,,,much like the flash and batt (oh crap did i just say that??)
quentin Posted: Mar 02, 2011 07:47 AM	Just so you know, we are in Ohio zone 5A so tons of heat, cold and humidity. Now if you do a flas and foil, you want to do 2.5-3in of closed cell or full fill of open. The nice part is the cost and ease of use to get code officials to pass you on the vapor barrier. Otherwise the attic solution works very well with traditional insulation on the ceiling methods. We found it makes a huge difference when you do that yet you can still pass the stupid venting requirements of the local officials. Like most anything else, you do it RIGHT and you get results. You do it WRONG and you get a mess. And by the way, I want to KILL the foamer I had a dream about last night! LOL WORST SPRAY JOB EVER!
Posted: Mar 02, 2011 10:07 AM	thanx Q,,i knew you were buckeye,, 2.5-3 is indeed a perty safe app in our zone but i gots to ask,,, if you can get the customer to upgrade to the foil,,, why the heck cant you sell the additional 4th inch of foam??? i mean these folks would have the performance of commerical cooler assembly in their sidewalls.. ,,,obviously if you are working with 2x4 it is a moot point,,,,so never mind,,,, and then again im wondering,,, with 2.5-3 cc on the cold side of the wall,,airspace,,then the foil vb,,on the warmside,,,hmmm,,i think you know where im goin here bud,, and as an edit: away from the book but: i wasnt aware that irc2009 required a vb on ceilings in z5,,,walls you betcha,,,ceilings,,nope,,which is why we ventilate "traditionaly" insulated attic assemblies...physics,,hot air rises,,hot meets cold,,,dew point is met,,,potential for condenstion is there if the next available "hard" surface is there for he moisture laden air to condense on (roof deck,,,derr),,,hopefully the convective currents created by the passive channels of the eve baffels provide enough air lift to move this moisture laden air up thru the ridge vent or thru the other vent assemblies,,,(hopefully,,lol)
Craig Gifford Posted: Mar 02, 2011 12:49 PM	The project is in Massachusetts & the client (which I did a large project for last fall) wants open cell...but noted economics was very important as well (I won't do a job that causes moisture problems). It is a very large Attic (50 x 280) getting a new roof....I was actually hoping that the Foil part would help to serve as an ignition barrier...not the case (after a little research). Many cities & towns in Mass have adopted the new energy-stretch codes... I am looking at an R-38 most likely ! The problem is ignition barrier....many of the barriers approved for IBC are not approved for the Mass building code! I have some inspectors that will allow spray-on ignition barriers & some simply won't + spray-on ig barriers over open cell isn't always logical vs over closed cell which is much more uniform! Just trying to give my client a good job reasonably priced (he does realize the energy savings that comes back to him).
John Shockney Posted: Mar 02, 2011 01:04 PM	Ok guys, We went through this radiant barrier crap back in the 70’s with this aluminum covered paper ****** I’ve seen it in a lot of crawl spaces and walls after 10 years it is just falling apart and any firefighter that has seen it in a fire will tell you that in just adds to the chimney effect and burns like a sheet of newspaper. I spent over ten years in Yuma, AZ working in the HVAC trade now Yuma averages 360 days of cloud free days per year and most HVAC equipment is on the roofs so I have personally been on a lot of hot sunny roofs (120deg+). From this experience I can tell you that an aluminum roof doesn’t reflect heat very well and is as much as 50deg hotter than the same roof painted white. I have painted a lot of galvanized and aluminum roofs white where the a/c wouldn’t cool the house before and was more than enough to cool the house afterwards. So white paint is a better reflective barrier than aluminum foil or you could do the same thing by using white vinyl and probably do a better job as a vapor barrier. Airpro
quentin Posted: Mar 02, 2011 08:36 PM	Dude, as I pointed out, in the walls it keeps the code officials happy and is inexpensive. given the choices, it is better than fibercrap or plastic sheets. In the attic it is applied different than you seem to think. You keep the venting for that application. You nail it to the truss on the bottom of the boards along the roof deck. So with this you keep the air space for venting to keep the officials happy but also help reduce how much heat is entering the attic then. You do have slits a few inches above the blown in or etc and at the ridge vent but it does make a pretty big difference in how much the temps in the main attic space swing either direction. Airpro, you are correct though that part is no different than other insulations so it boils down to which poison you want in your walls to make code officials happy that the laws are followed no matter how poorly written? Also note this goes under the roofdeck but you are 100% on white over silver for being exposed to the sun. On the underside the way they want it applied, it did make a very large difference from what we saw. Now if it didn't and was crap, I would say it but I honestly was surprised at it with the first customers who wanted to try it and I said I was unsure of the product. One other advantage is that you can use the labeled R value on it to pass the stupid rescheck requirements here without nearly as much foam. This means you are not giving them a ton more than they need at a huge extra cost since after 3in of closed cell in the walls or a full fill of open beats the others but they can compress that Rx labeled batt to a true R5 value and it meets the requirement with the local officials. Yeah it is stupid but that is how government and code officials seem to work most often. Nothing BUT foam to a proper level is the best but this allows you to keep them officials happy like we have to do.
Posted: Mar 03, 2011 11:45 AM	Q,,small d if you pleeze,, ok,,so i think you are describing using it as a ventilation channel from eve at top plate to peak or roof...replacing standard vent chutes,, where are you shooting your foam??? on to the foil?? or down on to the dry wall lid??? ie:conditioned lid vs ventilated attic assembly
quentin Posted: Mar 03, 2011 09:25 PM	Sorry about that dude. You can spray against it to keep the inspectors happy about venting under the shingles, use it in conjunction with blown in or when flaom is applied to the ceiling deck instead.
quentin Posted: Mar 03, 2011 09:25 PM	Sorry about that dude. You can spray against it to keep the inspectors happy about venting under the shingles, use it in conjunction with blown in or when flaom is applied to the ceiling deck instead.
Posted: Mar 04, 2011 12:11 PM	you need to remind the inspector that the conditioned lid assembly is an approved assmebly in 2009irc,,, you need to remind them that it is not their job to be concerned about shingle warranty,,the generals yes,,theirs,,no,,theirs is code interpetation and compliance,,, you do not have to make them happy,,you just need to apply to the paramaters of the code requirements,,but you do need to be careful how you educate them so it doesnt become a pizzing contest,,, (interestingly enough the conditioned lid assembly was excluded in 2009 ibc,,but again,,with proper education(show em irc section)you can get this thru no prob...thanx mason!!!) i am gathering my thoughts on how to post on the conditioned lid assembly and the system you describe,,,there are a few considerations here Q,,,more to come,,,
John Shockney Posted: Mar 04, 2011 12:52 PM	dude It sounds like Quentin is creating a dead air space inside a vented attic system with blow in or foam on the ceiling. The dead air space would reduce attic temps and probably improve the stack effect moving the air. But I wouldn’t spray foam against it most studies that I have seen find the you increase the chance of moisture getting into the roof system by having some kind of vent channel then to not have one. Also UCSC did a study in Phoenix, AZ and found only a 5deg temp difference between a vented and non-vented roof system. So why do it? Airpro
Posted: Mar 04, 2011 02:34 PM	thats where is was goin ap,, i was just tryin to get the words to explain it in my moronic way,, gawd i wish i could draw pix on here,,, the beauty of an spf system oc or cc in a conditoned lid assmebly is that it is glued to the substrate and the "next available airspace" for the moisture laden air to "lay out on" or condense on isnt there,,, but its almost noon,,,and bloody marys callin,,,the boardwalks crawlin,,and im gone,, more to come as i collect my thoughts...heee hee
quentin Posted: Mar 05, 2011 12:55 AM	dude,it boils down to the local code idiots here. Anymore I have decided after the last project I will exclude the county I live in from any more projects. Even though I can show all the codes on the face of the earth and all the studies, they fall back on the state code doesn't allow it so we don't listen. Add in a rescheck, all the data sheets, the various ER studies and rest and then waiting WEEKS for them to even look at it whil the other products are approved without any of this and it just is not worth the idiots. As for the foil, I suggect looking on their site for the installation instructions as the best way to see. It allows the ventelation that some code officials demand you do no matter what you can show them yet works as a way to get the to approve things and you reduce it heacily so it is concentrated at the roof deck and you can seal the rest or at least reduce the venting enough the other crap will work a lot better. either way the customer will save money on the heating bills while keeping government idiots with know clue and too much pay for their jobs happy between their booze breaks.