Foam thickness variation, what is acceptable? | Insulation/Energy/Building Envelope Q&A | Spray Foam Technical Questions and Answers | SprayFoam Magazine Q&A Forums

Q&A Forums

Foam thickness variation, what is acceptable? Post New Topic | Post Reply

Author	Comments
Posted: Mar 01, 2006 06:48 PM	Foam thickness variation, what is acceptable? What is the acceptable industry standard for foam thickness variation? I have a home owner that is measuring every square foot of the job we just sprayed, If we are low by 1/4 inch on a two 1/2 inch job, he complains and demands repair. I have asked him to locate all the low spots and I will resolve his issues, he tells me that finding the low spots is my problem and He will keep calling me back until he feels satisfied. I have returned 2 times and will return again tomarrow...I do want him to be satisfied, but I also would need to measure every square inch of the job to insure his satisfaction. Even then I don't think he will be satisfied.
Posted: Mar 02, 2006 06:00 PM	This is a difficult question to answer,You should always be sure to include the word nominal in your bids,and explain to the customer that slight variation is normal. An experienced applicator will be within an 1/8",and much more then that should be corrected. However it sounds like the home owner is being unreasonable. Tell him that if he has the time to check every square foot of the job, then he should cut out the high spots and glue them to the low spots.
Trey Gibson Posted: Mar 02, 2006 08:41 PM	The homeowner is just being ridiculous. Is the homeowner also the builder? We ask our builders to tell the homeowner to stay out of it. It is the builders job to build. Also, tell him it is 2 inches or whatever on average. I am sure there are some spot where it might be 2.5 or even 3 inches. Therefore a spot which is 1.5 or 1.75 inches is fine. Be sure to add a place in your bid that says 2 or 2.5 inches nominal fill. Then you can explain to them that the depth is an average.
Posted: Mar 03, 2006 06:44 PM	thanks, I used your information and was able to convince the homeowner that 1/4 inch was acceptable at the 21/2 inch depth I sprayed. I spent yesterday with a froth pack and a tooth pick though until he was finally satisfied. My next bids go out with the words nominal, average, and approximate. I left the concrete massonry business and started this foam business, in concrete slabs, 1/4 tollerance is acceptable and in 30 years, I never needed to explain that. New things to learn.
Posted: Mar 04, 2006 04:55 PM	Glad to hear you were able to satisfy the customer. Some are just very difficult.We have been in similar situations over the years. And luckily 30 years in business has shown that it's not the norm, just the occational unreasonable. Good luck in the future and yes definately include NOMINAL.
Posted: Mar 12, 2006 03:40 AM	see my rantings and raveings in WASTE & SPRAYING METHODS post for some thoughts on foam thickness...
Posted: Mar 27, 2006 06:05 AM	we should be selling r value not inches... live by the ruler,,die by the ruler.. at least label your bid +/- 1/2" or whatever you feel your profile limitations are. then apply to it... 4 levels of measurement: Ratio: absolute zero Interval: distance is meaningful Ordinal: attributes can be ordered NOMINAL: attributes are only named; weakest so we use the term so we can attempt to cover our butts for an inadequate application...the consumer is right...2" x r 3.5 = r 7....not r 11 or r 13..at least batts are uniform in depth, as is wetcell,,, we are inviting a good ANTI FOAM marketing tool by not applying to a uniform and consistant depth why not "R11 minimum" and then apply to it.. learn how to run the gun, trim if you must (you should) here comes the sun...............
Posted: Mar 28, 2006 09:28 PM	...rave on...that crazy feeling.... so yesterday,,,i get off the phone with a previous out of town customer of mine who thought this looked to damn good to be true and overnight became the midwests answer to spray foam insulation.... well he tells me he attended a class,,got the certificate and all! tells me the manufacturer (big name here,,,great company and people,,,good foam too)...says in the contractors manual (or whatever they call it) that all you need is 3 1/2" to 4" (r 13.3 - r 15.2) of their open cell foam (great product) in a 2x6 sidewall..and to sell touting "40% energy savings or more"! how? why bother? trying to provoke dialoge... is spray open cell too... ...dont shoot me,,,im only the piano player...
Posted: Mar 29, 2006 09:35 AM	You do have a lot of ideas. Thank you for reminding me of a basic truth. Give the customer what they pay for. I never want to do anything else, Give more value than you recieve. Basic good business practice. I like you idea concerning selling R value instead of inches. The next question they ask though is how many inches is that? I am right back to a rigid ruler. My last job involved filling cavities with closed cell foam and all the cutting and trimming associated with that. A little job gone big. I am very new in this business, although I have had other construction related businesses before. So, This forum is my education along with the battle in the field.
Posted: Mar 29, 2006 08:16 PM	re: my previous post.. "is spray open cell too..." read..I spray open cell too... "I am right back to a rigid ruler." well,,,,you quote by design specs and the "profile you have the ability to shoot to" ie" +/- 1/4" or +/- 1/2" or what ever... if it calls for R-19 and you got a 2x4 cavity.. and you shoot an R-7 closed cell..quote it at 2 3/4" +/- 1/4"...or what ever the numbers need to be fit the application...(no,,,a +/- 2" in a 2x6 for open cell is not acceptable...at least in my shop..)didjaknowthat an r19 is required for an energy star rating for 2x6 sidewalls...not r15,,, "My last job involved filling cavities with closed cell foam and all the cutting and trimming associated with that. A little job gone big." i hope that is a good thing..hard work builds character... dont bid the tough jobs cheap just to get the work..time is money,,get paid for what it is worth..hold your head up high,,if they tell you it is "too expensive" smile and tell em that "they cant afford it then" and let the door hit you in the ass..a cheap bid will only get you working for peanuts,,and the next time they'll work you to work for peanut butter.. and call you mr peanut.. work on your spraying technique..it will get better if you analyze both your sucesses and (most importantly) your failures.. ..great day foaming today..thank you god...
Posted: Mar 29, 2006 08:59 PM	Good luck in your new biz venture. This buisiness is no different then any other you will get it with experience. We are consistantly within an 1/8". Having a good spray pattern is critical, if you start to go off patern stop drop and clean. I do have to disagree on selling R- values with foam. Foam is so much more than a muddy letter provoked by the glass manufactures. Lets talk real world efficiency the glass guys can play R values. I have homeshow demos that show 1.5" of closed cell putting ten inches of fiberglass to shame. What are we talking R-10 versus R-30. Sorry glass guys R-s mean nothing in the real world.

Author

Comments

Posted: Mar 01, 2006 06:48 PM

Foam thickness variation, what is acceptable?

What is the acceptable industry standard for foam thickness variation? I have a home owner that is measuring every square foot of the job we just sprayed, If we are low by 1/4 inch on a two 1/2 inch job, he complains and demands repair. I have asked him to locate all the low spots and I will resolve his issues, he tells me that finding the low spots is my problem and He will keep calling me back until he feels satisfied. I have returned 2 times and will return again tomarrow...I do want him to be satisfied, but I also would need to measure every square inch of the job to insure his satisfaction. Even then I don't think he will be satisfied.

Posted: Mar 02, 2006 06:00 PM

This is a difficult question to answer,You should always be sure to include the word nominal in your bids,and explain to the customer that slight variation is normal. An experienced applicator will be within an 1/8",and much more then that should be corrected. However it sounds like the home owner is being unreasonable. Tell him that if he has the time to check every square foot of the job, then he should cut out the high spots and glue them to the low spots.

Trey Gibson

Posted: Mar 02, 2006 08:41 PM

The homeowner is just being ridiculous. Is the homeowner also the builder? We ask our builders to tell the homeowner to stay out of it. It is the builders job to build. Also, tell him it is 2 inches or whatever on average. I am sure there are some spot where it might be 2.5 or even 3 inches. Therefore a spot which is 1.5 or 1.75 inches is fine. Be sure to add a place in your bid that says 2 or 2.5 inches nominal fill. Then you can explain to them that the depth is an average.

Posted: Mar 03, 2006 06:44 PM

thanks, I used your information and was able to convince the homeowner that 1/4 inch was acceptable at the 21/2 inch depth I sprayed. I spent yesterday with a froth pack and a tooth pick though until he was finally satisfied. My next bids go out with the words nominal, average, and approximate. I left the concrete massonry business and started this foam business, in concrete slabs, 1/4 tollerance is acceptable and in 30 years, I never needed to explain that. New things to learn.

Posted: Mar 04, 2006 04:55 PM

Glad to hear you were able to satisfy the customer. Some are just very difficult.We have been in similar situations over the years. And luckily 30 years in business has shown that it's not the norm, just the occational unreasonable. Good luck in the future and yes definately include NOMINAL.

Posted: Mar 12, 2006 03:40 AM

see my rantings and raveings in WASTE & SPRAYING METHODS post for some thoughts on foam thickness...

Posted: Mar 27, 2006 06:05 AM

we should be selling r value
not inches...
live by the ruler,,die by the ruler..

at least label your bid +/- 1/2" or whatever you feel your profile limitations are. then apply to it...

4 levels of measurement:
Ratio: absolute zero
Interval: distance is meaningful
Ordinal: attributes can be ordered
NOMINAL: attributes are only named; weakest

so we use the term so we can attempt to cover our butts for an inadequate application...the consumer is right...2" x r 3.5 = r 7....not r 11 or r 13..at least batts are uniform in depth, as is wetcell,,,
we are inviting a good ANTI FOAM marketing tool by not applying to a uniform and consistant depth
why not "R11 minimum" and then apply to it..
learn how to run the gun, trim if you must (you should)

here comes the sun...............

Posted: Mar 28, 2006 09:28 PM

...rave on...that crazy feeling....

so yesterday,,,i get off the phone with a previous out of town customer of mine who thought this looked to damn good to be true and overnight became the midwests answer to spray foam insulation....
well he tells me he attended a class,,got the certificate and all! tells me the manufacturer (big name here,,,great company and people,,,good foam too)...says in the contractors manual (or whatever they call it) that all you need is 3 1/2" to 4" (r 13.3 - r 15.2) of their open cell foam (great product) in a 2x6 sidewall..and to sell touting "40% energy savings or more"!
how?
why bother?

trying to provoke dialoge...
is spray open cell too...

...dont shoot me,,,im only the piano player...

Posted: Mar 29, 2006 09:35 AM

You do have a lot of ideas. Thank you for reminding me of a basic truth. Give the customer what they pay for. I never want to do anything else, Give more value than you recieve. Basic good business practice.

I like you idea concerning selling R value instead of inches. The next question they ask though is how many inches is that? I am right back to a rigid ruler. My last job involved filling cavities with closed cell foam and all the cutting and trimming associated with that. A little job gone big.

I am very new in this business, although I have had other construction related businesses before.

So, This forum is my education along with the battle in the field.

Posted: Mar 29, 2006 08:16 PM

re: my previous post..
"is spray open cell too..."
read..I spray open cell too...

"I am right back to a rigid ruler."

well,,,,you quote by design specs and the "profile you have the ability to shoot to"
ie" +/- 1/4" or +/- 1/2" or what ever...
if it calls for R-19 and you got a 2x4 cavity..
and you shoot an R-7 closed cell..quote it at 2 3/4" +/- 1/4"...or what ever the numbers need to be fit the application...(no,,,a +/- 2" in a 2x6 for open cell is not acceptable...at least in my shop..)didjaknowthat an r19 is required for an energy star rating for 2x6 sidewalls...not r15,,,

"My last job involved filling cavities with closed cell foam and all the cutting and trimming associated with that. A little job gone big."
i hope that is a good thing..hard work builds character...
dont bid the tough jobs cheap just to get the work..time is money,,get paid for what it is worth..hold your head up high,,if they tell you it is "too expensive" smile and tell em that "they cant afford it then" and let the door hit you in the ass..a cheap bid will only get you working for peanuts,,and the next time they'll work you to work for peanut butter..
and call you mr peanut..

work on your spraying technique..it will get better if you analyze both your sucesses and (most importantly) your failures..

..great day foaming today..thank you god...

Posted: Mar 29, 2006 08:59 PM

Good luck in your new biz venture. This buisiness is no different then any other you will get it with experience. We are consistantly within an 1/8". Having a good spray pattern is critical, if you start to go off patern stop drop and clean. I do have to disagree on selling R- values with foam. Foam is so much more than a muddy letter provoked by the glass manufactures. Lets talk real world efficiency the glass guys can play R values. I have homeshow demos that show 1.5" of closed cell putting ten inches of fiberglass to shame. What are we talking R-10 versus R-30. Sorry glass guys R-s mean nothing in the real world.

You need to login to reply to this topic. Please click here to login.