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Dave Strnad Posted: Jun 22, 2006 07:12 AM	Future of the business? Since begining to research this business two years ago, locally 5 new companies are now spraying SPF for a total of 7 in a small area. Also in my search for equipment it seems like everyone and their brother is getting into this business. Now that I have bid a few jobs it seems like the going rate is half what I expected. I initially thought that the rate was around $1.25 BDFT for closed cell, but it seems that the going rate is closer to $ .65 BDFT for closed cell. I can still make money at this rate, just not what I expected. Is this the going rate, is it just a local problem, or is the industry suffering from market saturation of installers exceeding demand? Any Thoughts?
Trey Gibson Posted: Jun 22, 2006 07:55 AM	While there are many people getting into this business, there are many getting out when they find out how hard it is. Foam insulation is no walk in the park. But this is a good thing because those that can figure it out and offer a good product and be efficient can be successful. There are always those dumb asses who will give a low price and try to under bid everyone. In the end they are hurting the entire market. This is an expensive product and should fetch a premium price if installed right. At least thats what I feel. The cheap guys rarely do it right and when the builder/homeowner doesn't see any results from using foam its reputation is tarnished. Yesterday a builder we are trying to do business with mentioned he saw a company on the internet that will deliver a foam rig to your house, provide a guy to moniter the foam level, temp, etc and the builder or homeowner can insulate the house himself and the homeowner/builder is also responsible for prep/cleanup. Have any of you heard of this? I absolutely laughed out loud at the thought of seeing this situation go down. That is quite possibly the worst business idea I have ever heard of.
Dave Strnad Posted: Jun 22, 2006 08:45 PM	Have heard of similar, there is a guy on ebay installing a .5 lb drum set for $2700 if you do setup and cleanup. Not sure how you can make money that way. Also seen companies renting rigs to homeowners, kinda seems like a very, very, very, bad idea. Anyway I appretiate everyone on this site, as a person begining this business I have questions and need a little help and this has been a good source. Unfourtunately a lot of people in this business are not very helpful and seem to be part of a special club that doesn't want anymore members. I take this and my business very seriously, I know it will not be easy, it hasn't been so far and nothing that is worth it ever is. Thanks
Trey Gibson Posted: Jun 23, 2006 07:52 AM	In this business there is not a lot of good training so most of the contractors have had to figure things out for themselves through trial and error and deduction. So the special club thing is just each contractor guarding his tricks of the trade. On this message board we don't know where each other is from so I might be a competitor with you and don't want to give you anything that has provided us with a competitive advantage.
Dave Strnad Posted: Jun 23, 2006 12:57 PM	My special club comment was not aimed at anyone on this site. I think this is a good site with good people. Think about it, everyone needs something from time to time so its kinda a give get deal. I don't expect any secrects, but things that are common knowledge among people in the business shouldn't be a big deal to share. Even one bad job by your competitor could negitivly affect your future business with that contractor, homeowner, and their freinds. It seems like alot of people are on the fence about SPF and one bad experince could put SPF out of the picture for future jobs that the builder does. THe only reason I asked about pricing is because I have seen the three other bids and they were all very close to $.65 a bdft from three large established businesses, kinda seemed low for closed cell. I have a bidding program that is region specific and it puts Corbond at $1.35 BDFT. I'm not sure maybe $.65 is right on, I guess it must be if thats what the three major companies here bid. Any Thoughts?
Melvin Chandler Posted: Jun 23, 2006 11:51 PM	I'm in London KY. Haven't purchased my rig or started my biz yet. Plant to drop the hammer next week. I've thought about going to NCFI, FE/BASF, Demilec, Graco, or anywhere I can get some good education. If there's anyone here willing to share info with me knowing where I'm located, I'm all for it:) I'm a conventional flat roofer. I can probably return the favor by giving some info related to BUR, TPO, PVC, PIB, etc if you are interested. I'm actually looking for an experienced foam roofing guy to sub some work from me. I'm bidding about 500 squares of standing seam and want a foamer who can provide a 20 yr warranty on new construction that has at least 1/2 million feet applied. I'm guessing they mean deck squares applied and not board feet applied but they didn't specify it. The foamer has to will have to provide a bond and other credentials to prove they can do the work. It's about 300 squares of 1.5" foam over 1/2" wood fiber over 1.5" rigid iso(board stock) over metal deck. Must have silicone coating.
SprayFoamSupply.com Posted: Jun 24, 2006 06:29 AM	Dave, I talk to alot of guys looking to get into the business. I am amazed at the lack of support that is out there. Many guys thank me for simple calling them back? Sometimes I am the 5th or 6th company that they called, and some of the larger foam companies don't even call them back. I provide free training in NH for anyone who is interested. George
SprayFoamSupply.com Posted: Jun 24, 2006 06:50 AM	1.5lb foam seems a little light to use on a roof. George
Posted: Jun 24, 2006 07:03 AM	george,,i think he meant 1.5 inches... there are lots of newbees here in the cornfield gouging the hell out of the market..underbidding with prices that cant make them any money.. you may make a wage, but no profit on your investment...hell i can earn 10% working the stocks,,so i better make a return for this hot hellin work.... $.65/ft for closed cell,,,it is costing them ~$.40..do the math..i dont work for $7.00 an hour, nor do my employees... if this is "larger" companies,,they may be leveraging you new guys out by lowering prices to reduce your ability to make it in this market.. they have the financials in place to "weather the storm" and once you are out of business they will raise em back up to the fair market value.. if it is builders telling you $.65 per foot ,,they are probably "working you" (read lieing to you) to see how cheap you will work.. or they are quoting you .5 lb prices cause they dont know the difference between the various foams (and you didnt educate them well enough to see the difference) foam on...
Ryan Rhoads Posted: Jun 29, 2006 11:32 PM	Here are my personal 2 cents. I will work for .65 a board foot from time to time, if I walk in without help and spray. That is it. I fell into the price gouging game this winter and I have been busy as hell triing to catch up since. I can not afford to have employes to help me on those jobs and then to top it off I have a lot of money out on materials and sit around waiting for the profit so I can advertise and then I have no money for materials. Don't succome to there mistakes. Offer a good product at a fair price. I have not had a pay check for myself in about 3 months becuase I am triing to make this thing work. I know someday people are going to realize that the little extra they pay for my services is better becuase they don't have to by 10 cases of foam cans and go around behind the cheap guy so they have some insulating behind electrical outlets and under window seals where the guy didn't bother to tilt his gun just a little to get that area filled. Fortunately I have a broad background and can go drill a well on the weekend or wire a house so that I have some supplemental income. The other thing that helps me is that I am as hard heading as an old mule and refuse to give up without a fight. I don't know the answer but I will tell you one thing I look at every avenue for the use of my rig, from making fake rock well covers to spraying bed liners so that I can make the payment on it. I hate to be one of those secretive guys, but I have to protect myself, If you will tell me where you are from and send me an email by clicking on my name at the top left of this message I will keep you up to date on the things that work for me and sideline things that I do to stay afloat. I don't mind sharing information; However when it comes to providing for myself and my family I have to be careful. By the way as far as pricing goes with all of the latest increases in foam/shipping I would not go below .75 BF. I know that with volume you can make money at less than this, look at Wal-mart; However tell your future customers to ask who will be on the job spraying the foam? You the owner or some clown that someone hired to pull the trigger on the gun. If you explain that foam is not like painting that it take some experiance, practice and above all attention to detail it might win them over.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Jun 30, 2006 06:42 PM	We were charging .65 -.70 cents per bd foot back in the mid-eighties and the foam was MUCH cheaper ($950 for a set of Upjohn or FSC). 1.00 is none too much for rigid. As your reputation builds, so will your ability to charge a fair price. gcw
Dave Strnad Posted: Jun 30, 2006 09:18 PM	Thanks for the replys, just so everyone knows I am in northern Michigan. T.C. area. This site is nice because you can talked to people in the business that are not your competition. I ran my first testing this morning, more to come tommorrow to prepare for my first job next week.
william cole Posted: Jul 01, 2006 09:22 AM	yea dave i know what you mean, i have been in the business a few months and gotten a few jobs but for the amount of equipment you buy you would think the training would be better. we are going along pretty good but you have to find out what works best for you. we didnt have much help in exactly how to figure the jobs either. come to find out my partner and i were figuring the jobs two different ways so be careful of that. talking about that little club, i asked someone one time if they would send me a copy of their estimate sheet so i would have some ideas on making my own sheets and i was going to pay him to do it and he flatly refused.
Posted: Jul 01, 2006 10:00 AM	"i asked someone one time if they would send me a copy of their estimate sheet so i would have some ideas on making my own sheets and i was going to pay him to do it and he flatly refused" ouch.... i did not want to share because,,, it is nothing special... excel spreadsheet my wife built one afternoon it shows a +/- 10 cent swing from a "normal bid price" in 5 cent increments thus giving a 20 cent overall swing,,,if you are hungry you look at the lower numbers,,, it does not estimate material it does not provide a bid quote... it does provide a bid amount based on square foot applied... it is nothing special... i really dont even use it any more,,i enjoy the pencil and paper i still run the numbers by hand..paper,,pencil,,, cause i offer a variety of application options and each requires differnt prices and calculations now get this,,,i will offer my warped opinions to anyone who is decent enough to ask...i dont want to get paid for my advice,,i wish i had it offered to me when i first started...THIS INDUSTRY IS BEFROUGHT WITH INDIVIDUALS WHO THINK EVERY STINKING BIT OF INFORMATION SHOULD BE PAID FOR...pay them for their info,,,im sure the outstretched wallets are emailin you as we speak... if you would like to start a new topic on how we bid or sumppin like that give it a wherl....there is alot of smart guys out there from what i read...and it seems most that post here are willing to share... but man,,,dont call me the "good old boy clubber"... i was moderatly offended...and you should reconsider... a moroon maybe,,,clubber,,,no way... thank you for allowing me to vent..... happy 4th to all
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Jul 04, 2006 05:04 PM	grin
Huey Reed Posted: Jul 08, 2006 01:41 AM	PRICING - THIS IS LONG BUT VERY IMOPORTANT I guess if you want to price yourself out of business, go cheap. If a builder wants cheap let him install the world's worst carcenogen, fiberglass. With all of the new (old) information about fiberglass, who knows 10 years from now the builder may be responsible for the hazmat removal of fiberglass. Lawsuits will settle that argument, trust me Owens will not be responsible. By the way fiberglass is more hazardous than asbestos, it's a whole new industry. Hazmat removal of fiberglass! Pull out the old fiberglass from an attic and replace with 1 pound foam, $2.45 bd. ft., this is a hazordous material. You may be saving someone's life. Visit www.agritight.com click on "Warning". We need to learn what we have to offer, stop comparing apples to oranges. SPF insulation has no equal!!! Ask the builder this question, "Do you build quality homes?" If the answer is yes, then ask "why aren't you using SPF insulation?" They may say, "how much does it cost?" answer, "would you like to add 7% to every home you build?" They say, "what do you mean?" Energy efficient homes qualify for an energy efficient mortgage at a 7% higher market value, "do you build energy efficient homes?" DUH!!!! I don't know. Ask, "Would you like to make 7% more on evry home you build?" Sure! SOLD! Stop selling insulation, you are now selling one of the world's best building materials, SPF insulation. FEMA recommends it on "Coastal Construction". Countrywide loans offers "energy efficient loans". The EPA "energy star program" offers tax credits, and gives builders a free listing at their website. The DOE likes SPF insulation for "Zero Energy" construction. And all of the "Green Building" people like the soy based products because it's a sustainable product replaced by America's farmers. We all like it because we can cut our dependency on foreign oil from those idiots in the Middle-East, that alone is worth switching. Do you get the idea? Stop selling insulation and starting selling all of the benefits that we offer, that nobody else can offer. The fibergalss guys are selling cancer, we're not!!! If a builder says, "how does it compare to fiberglass?" answer, "we don't sale cancer?" Now you get it!!! WE DON'T SALE CANCER!!! More benefits: Reduce HVAC system by 30% save $1500-$3000. Eliminate attic ventilation in the south (if code officials allow) save $500-$1500. Eliminate 2x6 construction, don't need it, save $1500-$3500, closed cell foams reduce wind racking by as much as 200%. Qualify for tax credits, up to $2000 builder and $500 homeowner. Save on masking and caulking $200-$300. We have a publication called "A tale of two Builders". Builder "A" builds the old fashioned way using "cancerous fiberglass and cellulose". Contributes to wasted natural resources by not building energy efficient homes, etc., etc. Builder "B" uses SPF insulation paying $1.70 board foot (1/2 lb.) and saving himself the above mentioned benefits, and gets the house to market 7-10 days quicker. He makes more money, faster, and develops a reputation for building energy efficient homes. Sale the product and the benefits and stop selling price. Here are some pricing examples for insulating a 2500 sq. ft. home on the Gulfcoast, R11 walls, R19 attic. Vermiculite and Glass (cancer) Batts - $9664.00 Wool and (cancer) Batts - $9364.00 Cellulose and (cancer) Batts - $9214.00 Blown (cancer) Glass and (cancer) batts - $8639.00 Glass (cancer) batts and (cancer) batts - $7864.00 1/2 lb. foam $1.70 bd. ft.....$9246.00 Study, learn, educate and watch the foam business expand. Good luck! Hugh Reed
Dave Strnad Posted: Jul 08, 2006 07:10 AM	Ok not to DF anybody or anything. I just want to make sure we are on the same page. A bdft is 12" X12"x1" so if I'm spraying closed cell @ $.75 bdft and apply 2.5" it fiqures out to be $1.87 sqft. I believe you mean $1.70 per sqft, if not I am moving to your area! LOL Also unless your the only guy in the market, you have to be somewhat price competitive with other SPF installers. Sure you get what you pay for, but if the big guys that have been around for 20 years and do good work are charging a certain price you have to be competitive. I personally do not claim anyone does a poor job unless I have seen there work and even then I try not to bash anyone, it doesn't help our cause. If you can not make money at the going rate in this business you are not going to make it charging twice as much as someone doing the same job as you are. I suggest checking the local rates before getting in to this business, some of the distibuters etc. spout off these numbers that do not acuratly reflect local conditions. SPF is a great product and should be an easy sell, but it is not some new magical product it has been around a long time. Poorly applied SPF to less than proper thickness is not better than well installed cellulose or other cancer causers. Well off to a job wish me luck!!
Huey Reed Posted: Jul 08, 2006 11:21 AM	DaveS, we are new and I may have been a little miss-leading in the pricing, it was not intentional. There are guys in the foam insulation business charging $1.38 board foot at code, and some even less. We don't do that! I believe in marketing and education. We are not in the cheapest insulation business, selling the cheapest product. We are in the most expensive insulation product business, selling the best insulatuion product money can buy. We are the Roll Royce, Bentley, and Maybach all rolled into one insulation product business. If an SPF insulation company is selling KIA's, please get out of the business. As an SPF contractor you have to be able to walk away from builders than whine and cry about price. You are absolutely right on the price. The $1.70 board foot I mentioned is for our 1/2 lb. product at the minimum mandatory R-values (3" R11 walls and 5" R19 attic). That's our rock bottom price for builders on contract, and only for the first home. We do not recommend the 1/2 lb. product in Florida at all but use it for pricing to get our foot in the door. Our current prices (at code) are as follows, and by the way if these prices are to low, let me know, I WILL go up. I prefer the highest price I can possibly get. The high price for each product is for one house, the low price is for builders on contract. R11 walls and R19 attics: 1/2 pound - $1.90/$1.80 1.2 pound - $2.25/$2.10 1.7 pound - $2.35/$2.20 2.0 pound - $2.45/$2.30 If the builder/owner wants higher R-values we charge more. The higher the R-value product the stronger bonding properties the foam has, so why not charge more. Florida is prone to lots of rain, very high humidity, oh and hurricanes, that spin off tornadoes (come on down). When I talk to builders we go in with the 1/2 pound pound product and work from there. Wev then up-sale to the highest priced product. We are trying to get the CBS (concrete-block-stucco Flamingo pink house) builders to switch back to 2x4 stick homes so we can spray more foam. A 2x4 wall with 2 inches of our 1.7 or 2.0 pound product is better insulated and just about as strong. Personally I think we should all get on the same page and set some prices we can make a lot of money with. If I am to low, I will gladly charge more. Let me know
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Jul 27, 2006 10:56 AM	"You are absolutely right on the price. The $1.70 board foot I mentioned is for our 1/2 lb. product at the minimum mandatory R-values (3" R11 walls and 5" R19 attic). That's our rock bottom price for builders on contract, and only for the first home. We do not recommend the 1/2 lb. product in Florida at all but use it for pricing to get our foot in the door." Hi Hugh: A little clarification please. I assume that the price is different for the R11 than the R19 attic. Or do you charge the same because you don't have to trim the attic? thanks, gcw
Shawn Wardell Posted: Aug 01, 2006 01:55 PM	I read you are looking for a foam roofing company to sub your foam work to. We would be interested in some of your work. let me know swardell@sbcglobal.net some of my past customers are several city government, dept of energy, Beoing, raytheon, Cessna, state dept. Let me know if we can be od assistance.