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Posted: Mar 07, 2006 08:38 PM	Going rate Hello. I'm a new forum user. Been in the insulation business for about 4.5 years now. I'm wondering what the going rate in your areas are for like 2" of ridgid foam insulation in a pole barn. Also, what's evryone paying per pound for 2lb. closed cell? Thanks
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Mar 24, 2006 11:59 AM	1.90 for two-inches of 2#. All foams are roughly $2000 per set. Sadly. This cost has driven potential customers to cellulose or open-cell foam. I can't blame them. gcw
Posted: Mar 24, 2006 08:13 PM	$1.50/2" in the local market area (~40 mile circumference)..then additional costs for travel and expenses beyond that area... i will only shoot 3" or more to pole barn lids..2"sides.. but my lids dont condensate,,even with unvented lp heaters in the structure..and im to old to get up that high for 2" or less...and the 3" profile allows me to level out the ribs and do a nice job at the heels without takeing a loss in materials... foam costs depend on how much you buy at a time...but i would guess $2000 for single sets would be about right in todays world...
Melvin Chandler Posted: Mar 24, 2006 09:32 PM	What do you mean by pole barn lids? Are you spraying the bottom and top of a metal roof? Are you speaking of a 3" tall rib profile in the metal and filling the pan and covering the top rib with one continueious level?
Posted: Mar 24, 2006 11:58 PM	I believe what he means by "lid" is the underside of the roof. When you spray the underside of pole barn steel it takes about 2.5 inches of foam to get the rib to completely disappear. At 2" you can still see where the ribs are. I usually always spray 2" and the lines of the ribs still show but the job still looks quite smooth and sharp.
Posted: Mar 25, 2006 08:05 AM	yes i meant the undersurface of the roof (from inside) yes a 2" application does look good and will (most important) prevent condensation on the surface...but my tired old grey head dont go 20 foot + in the air any more for 2"....i just bid em at 2" sides 3" lids,,they can look at my work and at others and they usually end up spending for the additional inch... if someone wants to "drop a lid" and have you spray down on the liner tin,,be sure to let them know ( and get in writeing their acknowledgement) that the roof lid above will more than likely condensate in cold weather...it does,,it can,,it will,, conditions space rules....
Melvin Chandler Posted: Mar 25, 2006 09:53 AM	if someone wants to "drop a lid" and have you spray down on the liner tin,,be sure to let them know ( and get in writeing their acknowledgement) that the roof lid above will more than likely condensate in cold weather Care to explain?
Posted: Mar 25, 2006 05:21 PM	sure, i will try.. by sealing the dropped lid we now have created the building envelope at that level with conditioned space below...unconditioned above.. so we have unconditioned space...here comes the sun,,heats up the metal roof on the outside..hot meets cold (the inside attic air,,as its unconditioned) and condensation occurs...then drip drip drip onto the insulation below...
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Mar 26, 2006 10:32 AM	That's true. Ventilation can stop that. gcw
Melvin Chandler Posted: Mar 26, 2006 11:52 PM	When I built my home, I installed 1/2" OSB in the attic so that the foam guy could just spray up in the ceiling joists. I gues that means I have an unconditioned attic??? Isn't that the ultimate goal? Not to have your home environment escape thru the attic? Now, I do have a 4 ton unit up in that attic but I've never found a condensation problem. My climate isn't extreme here in SE KY but we do have winter days in the teens and summer days up to 100. Usual lows and highs are 30 and 95. In the summer we could wake up to 60 and be at 93 by lunch. Anyway, did I create a problem insulating that way? What method would I have used to make a conditioned attic?
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Mar 27, 2006 03:20 PM	It sounds like you do have a conditioned attic. gcw
Melvin Chandler Posted: Mar 28, 2006 09:44 PM	The hvac unit is up there but it is not insulated in the attic and there's no supply vents to the attic. Actually, there is gable vents, ridge vents, and soffit vents that run thru baffles to the attic.
Posted: Mar 28, 2006 09:57 PM	unconditioned attic.. he sheeted the top of the 2x4 rafters (or whatever size)from the attic side and sprayed foam from below,then rocked below,,i think.. did you create problems,,,well,,,you have defined the building envelope as "at the foam shell level"{..the attic is unconditioned..but you describe it as well ventilated so you should be ok.. if you dont see moisture/condensation problems (and as you describe you shouldnt) you are not in trouble from a moisture stand point. any moisture vapor that can penetrate the building envelope should be able to be removed via the ventilation "channels" you provided.. to make a conditioned attic you would spray directly to the undersurface of the roof sheeting..and not insulate the drywall attic lid...(i have a client who is monitering his application..he is 1 degrees cooler on the 2nd level than the main level, and 1.5 degree cooler in the conditioned attic than the 2nd level..see the recent ORNL study mentioned elsewhere in this forum)this can be prohibitive in some of these big assed roofed homes..more lumber above the top plate than in the sidewalls..so the application you describe is good AS LONG AS THERE IS ADEQUATE RVALUE in the envelope, and as long as there is adequate ventilation in the unconditioned space above.. with the hvac system in the attic is another thing.. if you have exposed ducting in the attic you are less than efficient in delivering the "conditioned air you PAID TO CONDITION" to the conditioned space below...(R5 to R7 is what is on the ducts here in the cornfield).. if it is just the compressor up there and a good installer kept the ducting ALL in the conditioned space below (doubtful)you are just exposing the attic to more heat via the mechanical process of air conditioning as well as a bit of moisture that needs to be able to evaporate into the atmosphere...make sure you got a good drip tray under the unit.. worst scenerio,,,insulate the ducts to a higher level...bury em in soft foam or glass or sumpin for continued dialoges sake.... so what is the R value of the TOTAL ATTIC INSULATION in your home? what type of foam is up there? do you have foam in the sidewalls? sq ft conditioned space? avg winter heating bill? avg summer cooling bill? ...can you hear me major tom?....
Posted: Mar 29, 2006 09:19 PM	If you want to make some money and cover your overhead look for $1.00 an inch over 1. The first inch should fetch some more. 1.5" sidewalls and 2" on the roof deck - PERFECT.

Author

Comments

Posted: Mar 07, 2006 08:38 PM

Going rate

Hello. I'm a new forum user. Been in the insulation business for about 4.5 years now. I'm wondering what the going rate in your areas are for like 2" of ridgid foam insulation in a pole barn. Also, what's evryone paying per pound for 2lb. closed cell?

Thanks

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Mar 24, 2006 11:59 AM

1.90 for two-inches of 2#.

All foams are roughly $2000 per set. Sadly. This cost has driven potential customers to cellulose or open-cell foam. I can't blame them.

gcw

Posted: Mar 24, 2006 08:13 PM

$1.50/2" in the local market area (~40 mile circumference)..then additional costs for travel and expenses beyond that area...
i will only shoot 3" or more to pole barn lids..2"sides..
but my lids dont condensate,,even with unvented lp heaters in the structure..and im to old to get up that high for 2" or less...and the 3" profile allows me to level out the ribs and do a nice job at the heels without takeing a loss in materials...

foam costs depend on how much you buy at a time...but i would guess $2000 for single sets would be about right in todays world...

Melvin Chandler

Posted: Mar 24, 2006 09:32 PM

What do you mean by pole barn lids?

Are you spraying the bottom and top of a metal roof?

Are you speaking of a 3" tall rib profile in the metal and filling the pan and covering the top rib with one continueious level?

Posted: Mar 24, 2006 11:58 PM

I believe what he means by "lid" is the underside of the roof. When you spray the underside of pole barn steel it takes about 2.5 inches of foam to get the rib to completely disappear. At 2" you can still see where the ribs are. I usually always spray 2" and the lines of the ribs still show but the job still looks quite smooth and sharp.

Posted: Mar 25, 2006 08:05 AM

yes i meant the undersurface of the roof (from inside)
yes a 2" application does look good and will (most important) prevent condensation on the surface...but my tired old grey head dont go 20 foot + in the air any more for 2"....i just bid em at 2" sides 3" lids,,they can look at my work and at others and they usually end up spending for the additional inch...

if someone wants to "drop a lid" and have you spray down on the liner tin,,be sure to let them know ( and get in writeing their acknowledgement) that the roof lid above will more than likely condensate in cold weather...it does,,it can,,it will,,
conditions space rules....

Melvin Chandler

Posted: Mar 25, 2006 09:53 AM

if someone wants to "drop a lid" and have you spray down on the liner tin,,be sure to let them know ( and get in writeing their acknowledgement) that the roof lid above will more than likely condensate in cold weather

Care to explain?

Posted: Mar 25, 2006 05:21 PM

sure, i will try..
by sealing the dropped lid we now have created the building envelope at that level with conditioned space below...unconditioned above..
so we have unconditioned space...here comes the sun,,heats up the metal roof on the outside..hot meets cold (the inside attic air,,as its unconditioned) and condensation occurs...then drip drip drip onto the insulation below...

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Mar 26, 2006 10:32 AM

That's true. Ventilation can stop that.

gcw

Melvin Chandler

Posted: Mar 26, 2006 11:52 PM

When I built my home, I installed 1/2" OSB in the attic so that the foam guy could just spray up in the ceiling joists. I gues that means I have an unconditioned attic??? Isn't that the ultimate goal? Not to have your home environment escape thru the attic?

Now, I do have a 4 ton unit up in that attic but I've never found a condensation problem. My climate isn't extreme here in SE KY but we do have winter days in the teens and summer days up to 100. Usual lows and highs are 30 and 95. In the summer we could wake up to 60 and be at 93 by lunch.

Anyway, did I create a problem insulating that way? What method would I have used to make a conditioned attic?

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Mar 27, 2006 03:20 PM

It sounds like you do have a conditioned attic.

gcw

Melvin Chandler

Posted: Mar 28, 2006 09:44 PM

The hvac unit is up there but it is not insulated in the attic and there's no supply vents to the attic. Actually, there is gable vents, ridge vents, and soffit vents that run thru baffles to the attic.

Posted: Mar 28, 2006 09:57 PM

unconditioned attic..
he sheeted the top of the 2x4 rafters (or whatever size)from the attic side and sprayed foam from below,then rocked below,,i think..
did you create problems,,,well,,,you have defined the building envelope as "at the foam shell level"{..the attic is unconditioned..but you describe it as well ventilated so you should be ok..
if you dont see moisture/condensation problems (and as you describe you shouldnt) you are not in trouble from a moisture stand point. any moisture vapor that can penetrate the building envelope should be able to be removed via the ventilation "channels" you provided..

to make a conditioned attic you would spray directly to the undersurface of the roof sheeting..and not insulate the drywall attic lid...(i have a client who is monitering his application..he is 1 degrees cooler on the 2nd level than the main level, and 1.5 degree cooler in the conditioned attic than the 2nd level..see the recent ORNL study mentioned elsewhere in this forum)this can be prohibitive in some of these big assed roofed homes..more lumber above the top plate than in the sidewalls..so the application you describe is good AS LONG AS THERE IS ADEQUATE RVALUE in the envelope, and as long as there is adequate ventilation in the unconditioned space above..

with the hvac system in the attic is another thing..
if you have exposed ducting in the attic you are less than efficient in delivering the "conditioned air you PAID TO CONDITION" to the conditioned space below...(R5 to R7 is what is on the ducts here in the cornfield)..
if it is just the compressor up there and a good installer kept the ducting ALL in the conditioned space below (doubtful)you are just exposing the attic to more heat via the mechanical process of air conditioning as well as a bit of moisture that needs to be able to evaporate into the atmosphere...make sure you got a good drip tray under the unit..

worst scenerio,,,insulate the ducts to a higher level...bury em in soft foam or glass or sumpin

for continued dialoges sake....
so what is the R value of the TOTAL ATTIC INSULATION in your home?
what type of foam is up there?
do you have foam in the sidewalls?
sq ft conditioned space?
avg winter heating bill?
avg summer cooling bill?

...can you hear me major tom?....

Posted: Mar 29, 2006 09:19 PM

If you want to make some money and cover your overhead look for $1.00 an inch over 1. The first inch should fetch some more. 1.5" sidewalls and 2" on the roof deck - PERFECT.

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