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SPRAYFOAM GODDESS Posted: Jul 07, 2008 10:51 PM	Graco vs Gama Did you all read the lawsuit? Wow, I am not usually able to decipher the legal jargon they use, but this was pretty simple, and GAMA did provide some good response. What's your take on the outcome?
Posted: Jul 08, 2008 07:14 AM	and the answer for $20.... another 20% equipment price increase!!! hiya robin :)
Michael Flander Posted: Jul 08, 2008 09:22 AM	Pretty standard stuff. Looks like Gama is taking it to trial, not that they have much of a choice. It will be interesting... isn't Garraf owned by the same company Graco bought Gusmer from?
SPRAYFOAM GODDESS Posted: Jul 08, 2008 09:32 AM	We always have special pricing for you foamdude! Yes, they are owned by PMC, I believe that is who owned Gusmer.
Posted: Jul 09, 2008 08:38 PM	I just bought a new Gama G250 H and it's the best proportioner on the market. I think Graco is mad for not making their non compete more iron clad and in which has created some serious and very real competion. I will only purchase Gama H machines in all my future rigs.
Posted: Jul 10, 2008 08:40 AM
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Jul 10, 2008 09:23 AM	I hope Graco loses. og
Posted: Jul 10, 2008 11:43 AM	Why are people so down on Graco? They do a great job for me?
josh degraauw Posted: Jul 10, 2008 12:47 PM	same here, no problems with graco. 3 machines which work flawlessly and i had the h250 in my shop and wasnt too enthousiastic.. just a bit flimz, the pressure adjuster for instance ,so thin and britl. for now ill stick to graco.. but you'll never know what the future brings. josh
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Jul 10, 2008 07:24 PM	Graco was a welcome player in the foam equipment arena until they started eating the other players. Competition = good. Monopoly = bad. og
Linerman Posted: Jul 10, 2008 10:42 PM	more than likely graco will settle before it makes it to court considering they really don't have a chance.
Posted: Jul 21, 2008 02:34 PM	Gusmer was the industry standard for foam equipment for years. Graco bought them out because they could not compete with them. Graco took the best parts of the Gusmer line and turned it into a cheaply made foam machine. I have replaced more heater control boards this year than ever before. Graco is making thier money on all the parts they are selling to keep thier equipment running. The E-series proportiners are nothing more than a modified paint pump. The pump volumes are to small the pressure fluctuates to much even with a small output mix module. Yet everyone that is getting into the sprayfoam industry is buying a rig with an e-20 or e-30. these machine simply are not contractor grade machines. The gamma machines rely on a tried and true pump design but we will have to wait and see how the itlaian made elctric controls hold up. There are some alternantives to graco or gama. 21stJMT is owned and operated by a former lead engineer for gusmer. Her has come out with a line of proportiners that are not pretty but are rugged simple and dependable. Not to mention that they will grow with your business and can be configured how ever you want. Yes I sell Graco and Gama. It really is what you have been taught or you were led to belive that will make the descion as to what you will by for equipment. The company I work for has been in the industry for 26 years. We don't use Gama or Graco we use gusmer. Graco has done a great diservice to the industry by putting out inferior equipment and letting new contractors use it. Foam failures are on the rise due to bad equipment and poor maintenance practices. Most training programs teach you how to get the materials from the drum to the gun but they don't teach you what is really going on. Steve
Michael Flander Posted: Jul 22, 2008 11:35 AM	It's not like Graco isn't trying to improve any issues they may have. Modular heater controls that are interchangable. New connectors in the hose. New helix whip hose. Now I am not saying that other equipment is not good also. Please don't take it as that. I am just saying that stating that Graco is engineering there products to fail so they can sell more parts is absolutely absurd.
Linerman Posted: Jul 22, 2008 06:11 PM	I don't think anyone is saying that. But them creating a monopoly gives them power to price fixing. All your replacement parts like on the gun are going up, the ones your gonna use more of. Hell, I remember about 8 yrs. ago a new machine would run about 12k now it's about 18k. Also not to mention they would control the market. Maybe in 10 yrs. from now or less Graco might even discontinue the reactor series and replacement parts and force everyone to switch to their new machine kinda like a couple of years ago after the gusmer buy out. Now they have control over Glascraft, so goodbye parts for the m-series. I sometimes sit and wonder the future of the market with rise in cost of everything, that profit margain is only gettin thinner.
Josh Lowman Posted: Jul 23, 2008 11:27 AM	One thing that graco does better than the rest is take all the manufacturing of thier product and bring it in house. None of the rest did this. More control better product. Made in the usa.
Michael Flander Posted: Jul 23, 2008 11:42 AM	Great points Spraypro. I was referring to the post by f-t service above me, of which I took him to mean he was saying that Graco is engineering products TO fail so they can sell more replacement parts.
quentin Posted: Jul 23, 2008 02:48 PM	Has the Glascraft buyout gone all the way through yet or is it still being organized? I know it is a done deal supposedly but if they haven't done the integration then the courts may look at that since it is part of the evidence against Graco and put up a block as a result. Be interesting to see if the courts do the right thing for once but I sure won't hold my breath hoping!
Steve Shaw Posted: Jul 25, 2008 03:56 PM	This is in response to the post that was put on this thread on 7/21/08 by F-T Service Tech. The person who wrote that post was not affliated with F-T services and should not have been posting messages to this board under that name. That being said I wil state My feelings about Graco Versus Gama. I am Steve Shaw the Operations Manager for FOAM-TECH and F-T Services. Graco has brought alot of new contractors into the business by lowering the entry price to get into a spray rig. This has helped bring the cost of installations down and made it easier for more people to afford sprayfoam. Before you react and say that those are the guys that are killing your business because they are so cheap let me say I know and we have felt the impact as well. But our phone has been ringing off the hook for quotes. No we don't always get the work because there is always somebody cheaper than we are. As time goes on the contractors that are underselling will realise they are not making enough money to cover thier costs. All it takes is one major callback and they will loose thier shirt. The new Graco Fusion CS has alot of good engineering in it and I can't wait to spray with one next week. Gama has some nice equipment tried and true pump design new electronic controls. We'll have to wait and see how they hold up in the real world. I have see Reactor E-30's that have been running for 3 years straight without being touched. I have also seen a Brand new HXP3 that had O-rings missing from the Factory. Bottom line no body is perfect and there will always be a certain percentage of machines that will have defects. As long as Graco continues to try and improve thier products I applaud thier efforts. For those of you unhappy with your current equipment buy something else and let us know what you think. Gusmer machines had thier share of problems as well. We had a brand new H20/35 pro that came from the factory with the hose heat tranformer missing. This was before Graco had purchased Gusmer. Bottom line buy what you want you will still have the occasional breakdown some of you more than others. We have just learned what we need to maintain and how often it needs to be done in order to keep our machines running smoothly. PREVENTIVE maintenance is always cheaper than down time. A little competion will keep Graco on thier toe's and force Gama to try and come up with new products that are better than Graco's. This can only mean the contractors will have access to the latest technology wheather it is Graco's or Gama's. Steve Shaw
philip mullins Posted: Jul 25, 2008 11:23 PM	i dont think that the quality of the products is at all relevant in this case. standard oil also had a good product. problem was that j.d.r. would put any one who challenged him out of buisness. either by buying them out or by other meens. it aint fair, and i.m.h.o., it affects interstate commerce, wich is illegal. we will just have to wait and see what the courts decide.
SPRAYFOAM GODDESS Posted: Jul 26, 2008 10:07 AM	The E-20's & E-30's have their share of control & heat board issues, BUT so did the 20/35's, the controller was changed many times and a replacement was $500, nevermind that the hose heat and preheaters were not interchangeable when the PRO came out. I also agree with whomever stated about made in the usa. I have toured Graco's machine shop, its amazing, they provide a lot of jobs. I like the redesigned hydraulic pumps and packings, they are easier to work on and last longer. I have not sprayed with a Gama either, so I can not comment on that. I do know that when they were in the development stages, they were trying to enter the market with a hydraulic machine similar in price to the e-series machines, but that didn't happen, and was very disappointing. Why is the lawsuit only referencing IPPE? Thats in plant stuff, like those huge RIM Cell units right? Does this mean it does not pertain to the spray only pour?
Michael Flander Posted: Jul 29, 2008 10:44 AM	Robin: The IPPE reference was confusing to me to. And your right, it typically does refer to Liquid Controls... I just thought it was odd that they would single out in-plant at all. You would think that in-plant stuff would be a small percentage of Gama's target market.
Posted: Aug 01, 2008 09:37 PM	Good god, don't you realize that Gama is a bunch of ex Gusmer people who took $66 million from Graco? These are the same people that run this website!!!! They also have a RIM (IPPE) group. IPPE was a Gusmer product not a Liquid control product. IPPE is not spraying insulation in buildings. Graco does not deserve a monopoly and Gama should not be in the business. They should be sitting in the sun, enjoying their money. Graco is a US company that manufactures in the USA, is publicly held and and helps add value to your 5 year old's kindergarden teacher's retirement plan. Gama is the selfish one.
philip mullins Posted: Aug 03, 2008 12:32 AM	a guy i know who also sprays foam, his wife was a kindergarden teacher who retired at the end of last school year. she is already going back to work cause after they deduct for her insurance she only makes like 300 bucks a month on her retirement. thanks for the rhetoric but, i will be pulling for gama on this one. i think i will make more on stocks if graco loses. i suppose that makes me the selfish one. but, i am not rich enough for my selfishness to hurt others, unlike either of the companies in question.