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Darin Gin Posted: Jan 08, 2009 03:20 PM	Home owner/designer requesting commentary on .5lb OCF install I'm building my first custom home (personal residence) near Lago Vista, TX. We've designed a 2-story and intended on doing foam insulation and solar water heating. We're at the insulation stage currently. The foam that is being used is a 1/2 lb open sell foam - brand name: Demilac Sealection 500 3 walls in the home are 4", front and rear walls at 6". Foam was to be sprayed to 3.5" nominal depth in the exterior walls and to 5" depth on the roof deck. Roof deck sits on 2x6s. I've never done a foam house before - technically, I'm working with a GC / licensed builder that has built well over 100 homes. I'm his second foam custom - so he doesn't have a lot of experience with foam either. I have substantial concerns about the installation: 1) Foam on the roof deck seems to vary in thickness by a huge amount, which indicates to me a lack of experience or poor skills in spraying this stuff. Not all of the rafters were covered completely. When I asked the contractor about it, he told me that if I wanted 100% rafter coverage, I should have let him bid 6" foam depth... (not disclosed up front) 2) Wall foam has decent depth in most places, but there is a lot of pulling away and narrow depth in next to the studs. The excess foam was cut with a serrated blade.. Clean up OK, but there are some voids (big bubbles) in the foam, some small areas with no foam, and again - inconsistent depth. We don't have inspectors in the area that are familiar with spray foam and technically an insulation inspection isn't required for my "rural" area... So I'm looking for some feedback as to the installation quality of the installation. A link to posted photos:
Darin Gin Posted: Jan 08, 2009 03:22 PM	First attempt at trying to link:
Darin Gin Posted: Jan 08, 2009 03:27 PM	Please see the link to the left... Can't post url directly.
Roger Morrison Posted: Jan 08, 2009 03:45 PM	Your concerns are valid. Make him fix it. Roger
Darin Gin Posted: Jan 08, 2009 04:28 PM	Rodger, Commentary on WHAT to fix is appreciated... I'm completely new to this and obviously if the contractor thinks that his install is OK - I need to be explicit with what exactly I deem as acceptable...
quentin Posted: Jan 08, 2009 05:00 PM	All voids and pulling needs fixed, stud faces should be PROPERLY cleaned which it looks like needs done and he needs to learn better about prepping things so you don't have foam all over many of the wires. Open cell is tricky to install at an even depth so a fair amount of undulation is not abnormal but they are new to spraying from the looks of it. Heck, my first job looked better though and even being new I know better than to leave that many voids where you can even see the substrate in some of those pictures! He needs to get a portable touchup kit like I use and also do like me and have someone going around looking for areas that need help behind me while they trim. Everyone makes mistakes and there is a big learning curve on foam so give them a chance to fix it first. Mostly they need to use a wire brush on the stud faces where it looks like a lot of foam is left, scrape the other areas with a putty knife and to fix large voids. If they won't then make sure to pass word around and pick up a portable kit from Tiger Foam or CPi to touch them up for about $200-$400 since it will most likely be cheaper than fighting them.
Jeremiah Hein Posted: Jan 08, 2009 05:10 PM	Demilec is a great company and one of only a few that moniters there contractors thru the inseal right program. Your not able to get there foam without being an authorized contractor. you can log onto demilecusa.com and see who the sales contractor is for your region. Give them a call. My guess is they would be happy to come and look at your house. They really care about quality.
SPFer Posted: Jan 08, 2009 08:47 PM	Voids and holes in walls need to be filled. Narrow stud gaps as in pic #44 need to be filled, preferably with window and door foam. All window and door gaps need to be filled with window and door foam. If the bid specifies for 5" in the roof and the rafters are 6" rafters, they will not be covered. Thickness variation is nothing to get to worried about, as long as it averages out as least for what is specified and the lows are not too low. Depends on how picky you are. You paid for a quality job, you can demand a quality job. Just be reasonable.
Darin Gin Posted: Jan 09, 2009 11:37 AM	So just for clarification - the product was not Demilec. I confirmed this by the regional Demilec rep, who actually came out and knew immediately that it wasn't his product. We got off base as another foam contractor dropped off Demilec literature just prior to having this job done.. The Demilec guys were outstanding - if we do this again, we'll definitely consider using their product, even if it costs a bit more.. I appreciate the commentary, guys... Thank you very much.
quentin Posted: Jan 09, 2009 11:48 AM	You may want to find the manufacture of the foam and contact them about the contractor if they fail to correct the problems. Many will either get it set or stop selling to that contractor though some won't really care.
Darin Gin Posted: Jan 09, 2009 02:20 PM	I've got them coming back this weekend and I'll be on site. I'll give them an opportunity to correct before raising a complete stink. I appreciate the tangible direction that people have given me here.. It certainly helps to have guys that are in the industry.
quentin Posted: Jan 09, 2009 10:52 PM	Spraying is as much art as anything I have found out and as long as he makes it right, then don't just count them out. My first job I was exauster, dirty and just dead on my feet when I left it but had to return the next day since I missed a few spots being too tired to have caught them. I have a good relationship with them still since I had no problems coming back and correcting it and they understood I am new in the business though I studied the technical ends for a long time first. As I pointed out in a different thread. we all make mistakes but as long as I do right by them and they do right by me then things seem to work out pretty good. No matter what, foam is the best product out there and I would love to be able to charge less to do more of it and truly believe in the product. Don't sweat who makes the foam as much as finding someone that does the job right for a reasonable price. Foam is foam is foam when it comes to the end user and the only real difference being what the person spraying it prefers for their style, equipment and etc.
Posted: Jan 10, 2009 05:58 PM	Being an applicator, it is nice to strive for perfection. By looking at the photos, it definately wasn't their first rodeo. Sometimes when you start out and even though you may know how to work the machinery, you may not know how to do the job correctly. The best thing that I found was looking at someone elses work and comparing to my own.. If they are better or do things a little differently, I try to figure out how to get better also. Call your contractor up and ask him to come out and take care of the few problems. If he takes care of the problem, then that is one less problem that you have to deal with when building a house. If he doesn't come out, then you probably chose the wrong contractor to begin with. Good Luck and keep us posted how everything worked away.
Edward Brassington Posted: Jan 10, 2009 07:18 PM	There are definitely some problems with the installation. I noticed on a couple of pictures where the walls join the gables there appear to be some areas missed. Also on picture 43, all three stud bays have voids in the foam. The best way to detect hidden voids is to tap gently on the foam in each stud bay. Use the back of your hand in a gentle relaxed manner. If the foam is installed properly your hand will bounce of the foam. If not you will detect a void in the foam. All the voids within the foam need to be filled or you will have issues. Check your local code requirements for your area. If you normally require R20 in a wall or R28 in a ceiling then the requirements for the foam will be the same. Also check local vapour barrier requirements as open cell foam requires a vapour barrier. If the foam is Icynene then be extra careful when they add additional foam as it does not stick to itself. Icynene has the same R value as fiberglass Approx R3.5 per inch. If the roof rafters are 2x6 then you only have an inch of foam as seen on picture 7. Make a fine tipped probe from either a very small srewdriver, put some electrical tape at the 3 inch and 5 inch marks. You can then go over the whole job and determine areas that are of by 1/2 an inch or more. A shot of spray paint will identify problem areas for the contractor. Good luck.

Author

Comments

Darin Gin

Posted: Jan 08, 2009 03:20 PM

Home owner/designer requesting commentary on .5lb OCF install

I'm building my first custom home (personal residence) near Lago Vista, TX. We've designed a 2-story and intended on doing foam insulation and solar water heating. We're at the insulation stage currently.

The foam that is being used is a 1/2 lb open sell foam - brand name: Demilac Sealection 500

3 walls in the home are 4", front and rear walls at 6". Foam was to be sprayed to 3.5" nominal depth in the exterior walls and to 5" depth on the roof deck. Roof deck sits on 2x6s.

I've never done a foam house before - technically, I'm working with a GC / licensed builder that has built well over 100 homes. I'm his second foam custom - so he doesn't have a lot of experience with foam either.

I have substantial concerns about the installation:
1) Foam on the roof deck seems to vary in thickness by a huge amount, which indicates to me a lack of experience or poor skills in spraying this stuff. Not all of the rafters were covered completely. When I asked the contractor about it, he told me that if I wanted 100% rafter coverage, I should have let him bid 6" foam depth... (not disclosed up front)

2) Wall foam has decent depth in most places, but there is a lot of pulling away and narrow depth in next to the studs. The excess foam was cut with a serrated blade.. Clean up OK, but there are some voids (big bubbles) in the foam, some small areas with no foam, and again - inconsistent depth.

We don't have inspectors in the area that are familiar with spray foam and technically an insulation inspection isn't required for my "rural" area... So I'm looking for some feedback as to the installation quality of the installation.

A link to posted photos:

Darin Gin

Posted: Jan 08, 2009 03:22 PM

First attempt at trying to link:

Darin Gin

Posted: Jan 08, 2009 03:27 PM

Please see the link to the left... Can't post url directly.

Roger Morrison

Posted: Jan 08, 2009 03:45 PM

Your concerns are valid. Make him fix it.

Roger

Darin Gin

Posted: Jan 08, 2009 04:28 PM

Rodger,
Commentary on WHAT to fix is appreciated... I'm completely new to this and obviously if the contractor thinks that his install is OK - I need to be explicit with what exactly I deem as acceptable...

quentin

Posted: Jan 08, 2009 05:00 PM

All voids and pulling needs fixed, stud faces should be PROPERLY cleaned which it looks like needs done and he needs to learn better about prepping things so you don't have foam all over many of the wires.

Open cell is tricky to install at an even depth so a fair amount of undulation is not abnormal but they are new to spraying from the looks of it. Heck, my first job looked better though and even being new I know better than to leave that many voids where you can even see the substrate in some of those pictures!

He needs to get a portable touchup kit like I use and also do like me and have someone going around looking for areas that need help behind me while they trim. Everyone makes mistakes and there is a big learning curve on foam so give them a chance to fix it first. Mostly they need to use a wire brush on the stud faces where it looks like a lot of foam is left, scrape the other areas with a putty knife and to fix large voids.

If they won't then make sure to pass word around and pick up a portable kit from Tiger Foam or CPi to touch them up for about $200-$400 since it will most likely be cheaper than fighting them.

Jeremiah Hein

Posted: Jan 08, 2009 05:10 PM

Demilec is a great company and one of only a few that moniters there contractors thru the inseal right program. Your not able to get there foam without being an authorized contractor. you can log onto demilecusa.com and see who the sales contractor is for your region. Give them a call. My guess is they would be happy to come and look at your house. They really care about quality.

SPFer

Posted: Jan 08, 2009 08:47 PM

Voids and holes in walls need to be filled. Narrow stud gaps as in pic #44 need to be filled, preferably with window and door foam. All window and door gaps need to be filled with window and door foam.

If the bid specifies for 5" in the roof and the rafters are 6" rafters, they will not be covered.

Thickness variation is nothing to get to worried about, as long as it averages out as least for what is specified and the lows are not too low. Depends on how picky you are.

You paid for a quality job, you can demand a quality job. Just be reasonable.

Darin Gin

Posted: Jan 09, 2009 11:37 AM

So just for clarification - the product was not Demilec. I confirmed this by the regional Demilec rep, who actually came out and knew immediately that it wasn't his product.

We got off base as another foam contractor dropped off Demilec literature just prior to having this job done..

The Demilec guys were outstanding - if we do this again, we'll definitely consider using their product, even if it costs a bit more..

I appreciate the commentary, guys... Thank you very much.

quentin

Posted: Jan 09, 2009 11:48 AM

You may want to find the manufacture of the foam and contact them about the contractor if they fail to correct the problems. Many will either get it set or stop selling to that contractor though some won't really care.

Darin Gin

Posted: Jan 09, 2009 02:20 PM

I've got them coming back this weekend and I'll be on site. I'll give them an opportunity to correct before raising a complete stink. I appreciate the tangible direction that people have given me here.. It certainly helps to have guys that are in the industry.

quentin

Posted: Jan 09, 2009 10:52 PM

Spraying is as much art as anything I have found out and as long as he makes it right, then don't just count them out. My first job I was exauster, dirty and just dead on my feet when I left it but had to return the next day since I missed a few spots being too tired to have caught them. I have a good relationship with them still since I had no problems coming back and correcting it and they understood I am new in the business though I studied the technical ends for a long time first. As I pointed out in a different thread. we all make mistakes but as long as I do right by them and they do right by me then things seem to work out pretty good.

No matter what, foam is the best product out there and I would love to be able to charge less to do more of it and truly believe in the product. Don't sweat who makes the foam as much as finding someone that does the job right for a reasonable price. Foam is foam is foam when it comes to the end user and the only real difference being what the person spraying it prefers for their style, equipment and etc.

Posted: Jan 10, 2009 05:58 PM

Being an applicator, it is nice to strive for perfection. By looking at the photos, it definately wasn't their first rodeo. Sometimes when you start out and even though you may know how to work the machinery, you may not know how to do the job correctly.

The best thing that I found was looking at someone elses work and comparing to my own.. If they are better or do things a little differently, I try to figure out how to get better also.

Call your contractor up and ask him to come out and take care of the few problems. If he takes care of the problem, then that is one less problem that you have to deal with when building a house.

If he doesn't come out, then you probably chose the wrong contractor to begin with.

Good Luck and keep us posted how everything worked away.

Edward Brassington

Posted: Jan 10, 2009 07:18 PM

There are definitely some problems with the installation. I noticed on a couple of pictures where the walls join the gables there appear to be some areas missed. Also on picture 43, all three stud bays have voids in the foam. The best way to detect hidden voids is to tap gently on the foam in each stud bay. Use the back of your hand in a gentle relaxed manner. If the foam is installed properly your hand will bounce of the foam. If not you will detect a void in the foam. All the voids within the foam need to be filled or you will have issues.

Check your local code requirements for your area. If you normally require R20 in a wall or R28 in a ceiling then the requirements for the foam will be the same. Also check local vapour barrier requirements as open cell foam requires a vapour barrier.

If the foam is Icynene then be extra careful when they add additional foam as it does not stick to itself. Icynene has the same R value as fiberglass Approx R3.5 per inch.

If the roof rafters are 2x6 then you only have an inch of foam as seen on picture 7. Make a fine tipped probe from either a very small srewdriver, put some electrical tape at the 3 inch and 5 inch marks. You can then go over the whole job and determine areas that are of by 1/2 an inch or more. A shot of spray paint will identify problem areas for the contractor. Good luck.

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