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icynene vs. open urethane Post New Topic | Post Reply

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chris sims Posted: Jan 31, 2007 08:27 PM	icynene vs. open urethane
chris sims Posted: Jan 31, 2007 08:28 PM	whats the difference between icynene and regular open cell urethane????
chris sims Posted: Jan 31, 2007 08:46 PM	ive been told that its just a name brand put on some open cell foam. local icynene dealer tries to imply his foam is different from other foams. is there really a difference????
Melvin Chandler Posted: Jan 31, 2007 09:38 PM	The big difference is Icy has an ICC report. Other than that it a water blown half pound foam. It's not an Icynene like they do a good job of promoting. Just like Coke is a soda, Kleenex is a tissue, Q-tip is a cotton swab, Band-aid is a bandage, Tampex is a fem product, etc. That's about as technical as I can get.
Dave Strnad Posted: Jan 31, 2007 09:40 PM	Well as far as I know all Spray foam is basically the same. Certain chemicals are added or substituted to get the different lbs .5lb 2lb etc. Foams that are equally in lbs are even closer to be the same. Some have soy or biobased oils others are all petro. The product you asked about is a .5lb open cell foam and if you go to their website and look really hard at the fine print you will find it. They try really hard to market it as something different. Not sure where you are located at but, the local installer tells people that it is not either open or closed that it is Icynene! Then he sells 6" as an R-38. For me to apply an r-38 it takes 10" of open or 5.5" of closed, which is a huge price difference. It's easy to get an informed customer that gets online to check it out but it's hard to deal with sometimes if the customer does not want to research it. It is your word against theirs. To be fair they probally believe it too, I think the company inforces that belife. I now carry all supporting info with me on bids. I do not mean to bash any company or installers, but .5lb open cell is .5lb open cell and trying to call it something else is unethical. The link is to Icynene data sheet. Compare to other .5lb foams and you will find it similar.
chris sims Posted: Feb 01, 2007 03:58 PM	the icynene dealers in my area talk in circles about how their foam is different than 2lb closed cell. they never mention a comparison to .5 lb foam. i have a contractor that has used a icynene dealer in another city. he talks about icynene not wicking water,,not shrinking,, etcetc. i finally called icynene and talk to tech assistance they told me that it is a typical .5 lb foam just like any other.....now just to convince the contractor. thanks for your responses.
Dave Strnad Posted: Feb 01, 2007 05:35 PM	I suppose I probally shouldn't be posting negitive comments about any product or supplier, but like I said before these are just my experinces locally and just my opinions. I do think All spray foam is better than any other product out there. I just really dislike their marketing technique. I have had at least 5 people in the last couple of months that when I asked what kind of foam the bid was for or what they installed. In all five cases when I asked if it was open cell or closed cell they responded "Neither it's icynene, it is not .5lb open cell or 2lb closed cell!" They were just repeating what they were told and it was almost word for word each time. In all cases when I tried to explain that it was .5lb open cell they either got mad at me or mad at the Icynene installer. I just think that this method is bad for the SPF industry. Icynene is a great product, so is all Spray foam. Trying to mislead the consumer to sell more product is going to hurt us all in the end regardless of what foam we spray. I do think that this problem starts with the company though. If you look at their website the only place that mentions that it is .5lb open cell foam is the product spec sheet. The local guy is very reputable and I do not think that he would be intentionally misleading people, he is just repeating what he has been told. I'm sure he believes in it too. That make it very difficult to deal with, if the person has already installed it I usually just drop it after they say " It's not open or closed cell, it's Icynene. I don't want to start trouble I have talked to 2 people that if they knew that it was open cell would be very upset so I just dropped it. I will say it again Icynene is a good product and please let me know if this post is out of line. I do think that it is important to voice concerns otherwise nothing ever changes.
Posted: Feb 03, 2007 04:43 PM	I refuse to make ill remarks here excepting this. .5 lb foam is by criteria almost the same from one brand to another if and only IF it is properly applied. All the major foams are kicking the tails off of the "Pink Panther" and always will. Pick a good contractor and go forward.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Feb 12, 2007 04:11 PM	I'll say it then. Icynene is the Amway sales of the foam industry. Their claims regarding flame tests and performance ratings approach criminal. I could provide a whole series of examples (which I won't here). They repeatedly tell the untruth in their fervor to slander a superior product (ie. closed cell foam). They also don't mention the stack of lawsuits on their desk. I suppose they feel they can get away with it because they are based in another country (Canada). Their modus operandi is pure French (I've traveled in France). It's time that they work together in the foam industry instead of sabotaging others to satisfy their grand delusions. There, I said it. rant over, olger
Posted: Feb 13, 2007 06:43 AM	the most devisive .5 lb foam company in business,,,seconded only by the big D,,, ...and what olger said....!!! ken,,i got soy and icy installers telling folks that my closed cell is toxic,,,i gots soy and icy and other .5 lb installers saying their products are "superior" and have more rvalue, better adhesion, no toxic "stuff",,and all the other tripe,,,(then they install 3-4" in a 2x6 cavity and say see ya later....R13,,,energy star???40% energy savings!!!NOT!!!nothin but a dreamer...) hell i gots closed cell foamers saying that their foam has a "higher r value" than ANY other foam,, common guys...remove head from rectum,,, ....need more coffee,,,
Luke Kujacznski Posted: Feb 13, 2007 09:25 AM	I just saw on a soft foam website that their product cannot be affected by moisture???? doesn't soft foam absorb water. I also saw that the soft foam guys aresaying ridged for is not a permanent air barrier, because over time it shrinks and pulls away from the studs. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't ridgeds foam primary use roofing and if it shrank it wouldn't do a good job. I spray both oc anc cc and their are benefits to both. Lets play fair guys, don't lie and don't bash each others products. done.
Thomas Kasper Posted: Feb 13, 2007 06:53 PM	Well said guys. I couldn't agree more. On a little side note. What turns me away from some foam suppliers is that they want you to pay, to get trained, to spray their foam. Or else you can't get their foam. Boo on that. I can't spend all kinds of money every time I want to try some new foam. Thanks to you guys I have found a great cc foam and a good oc foam. I don't need to get trained to spray foam. I know how. The person installing the foam is more important then the brand of foam.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Feb 13, 2007 10:13 PM	Cool. Keep the trigger pulled, og
Timothy Sonney Posted: Mar 02, 2007 02:29 AM	We spray more CC than OC and when we get a call for OC we explain the difference to the customer, and before you know it the check is in hand and we are spraying CC. We just did a 3500sqft home for a customers that LOVED the fact that CC glued everything together, and added structral integerty to the building. 4 sets of foam done in 14 hours - 2 guys. Customer was so happy that they are now having us do their commercial building's warehouse.
Barry Wallett Posted: Mar 03, 2007 12:45 PM	OK here is my two cents, from someone who is only learning about the foaming business but is building a house and is going to purchase spray foam. Icynene has created a strong BRAND. They created great liturature and have done the work to back up claims they make. Their distributors are smart to sell "Icynene" and not .5 lb foam because they keep everyone else on the outside looking in. In addition I think it is interesting that they are selling a less expensive product oc to foam a house and charging in the area of cc foams. Pretty slick. For what it is worth...
Dave Strnad Posted: Mar 03, 2007 03:20 PM	I have no problem with branding, but when people are led to believe that Icynene is the type of foam then it is unethical. Based on my conversations with customers they believe that it is chemically different. In fact I bid a job that was already partially spray with Icynene. In talking to the homeowner I asked if he wanted me to bid open cell foam as well as closed. He went on to say that he did not want open cell in his house. I carefully explained that Icynene was open cell foam and the guy was furious. It took me handing a copy of Icynene's own product info sheet to convince him. This is bad for all Spray Foamers regardless of what brand you sell.
Mike Glace Posted: Mar 03, 2007 09:21 PM	In my area I love Icynene they do all this great marketing and I reap the benefits everytime I get a call or a lead usually the homeowner had seen something about Icynene some where then I go there show them my open cell product and explain that it is basically the same thing as Icynene then an Icynene dealer comes and bids and knocks them off there feet with there price and they call me back and schedule job. I just bid a addition last weds this exact scenerio. That is one thing I will give them that,they have huge marketing program other then that there just another foamer like us. Just not as nice promoting for all spray foam they love promoting for them but it doesnt always work.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Mar 04, 2007 04:39 PM	At an industry rountable meeting last year, I remember Roger Morrison P.E. chuckling and shaking his head "What the heck is a polyicynene?" There were two top level chemists in the room and they said that Icynene is just another open cell foam product. They are the Nu-Wool of the foam industry. Very aggressive marketing, and that marketing often manifests itself as an attack on superior or equal products. Somehow they have managed to convince themselves that theirs is better & different. Hypnosis perhaps? olger
Posted: Mar 27, 2007 01:53 PM	This is a little off topic but what is the differnce between a .5 lb OC and a 1.2 lb OC like Apex offers? Would the denser foam be less prone to water absortion or since it is still an OC would it be the same? Has anybody spray the Apex 1.2 lb OC on here? If so what do you think of it?
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Mar 28, 2007 11:07 AM	Hi. We have sprayed 3-sets of the 1.2 Platinum. We like it allright. We use it as a cheaper option to rigid foam. As to water absorption, it is less of a sponge than half-pound. Half-pound is a kitchen sponge! I learned this in my shop, when we sprayed some half-pound on the lower wall of our shop addition. Mistake. Had to tear most of it out. olger
Posted: Apr 13, 2007 04:13 PM	Olger, What BF performance did you get from the 1.2 Apex foam? Kenneth
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Apr 13, 2007 08:25 PM	7900 - 8326 bf. oG
Diane Vickery Posted: Sep 24, 2007 11:00 AM	We need as much info on open cell foam vs. closed cell foam as we can get. Can you help?
Huey Reed Posted: Sep 28, 2007 11:11 PM	NCFI has ICC reports, LaPolla has ICC reports, and a couple others. I was in the County Inspectors office showing him samples of our soybased foam and he told me, "according to our local Icy delaer, Icy has an r-value of 10 per inch". I said "TEN!!!" he said "yep", then he said "I need to see the paper work from Icy". I said, "what did he say", the inspector said, "that Icy dealer is no longer in our county". Icy has the biggest advertising budget, and their word is as good as gold, fools gold. The only time we spray open-cell is when the builder/home owner is an uneducated bafoon, I hate open-cell, it's just a big-ass sponge in the wall and roof!
Kelly Miller Posted: Oct 02, 2007 10:36 PM	I'm so new that I hardly can stand to type this, however...here's a twist on a local icy cool foamer--his spiel is that you should use his spongelike product because if you have a leak in your roof..."it will allow you to see the water seep through before there is too much damage." He is basically touting it as a open cell safety measure! Even as new as I am, the backwardness of this argument amazes me!
Matt Ganz Posted: Oct 03, 2007 06:45 PM	My home, in all of its unvented glory, is surrounded by half pound.(Demilec) No sponge problems here. We used to spray Demilec half pound and chose to move to Icynene for brand recognition and dealer support. As a business person I appreciate the power of quality marketing and Icynene spends more money than anyone. And the money they spend has produced results. Does this not benefit all SPF'ers? HGtv and This Old House charge a premium. I had a builder who uses us get all excited when I informed him that we switched to Icynene. "Oh, polyicynene" I chuckled and said "yeah, polyicynene" Big deal. I have not knowingly misinformed any potential clients. If someone as demented as me really wants to talk spray foam any friend of mine will tell you that I will talk foam ad nauseam, half pound and two pound. The only closed cell disagreements I have made known when pertinent to the conversation is with flash and batt systems. We live in snow country and we dont believe in it. We sell more half pound because it is less expensive installed than the 2llb we sell (Hetlok-soya) for almost every bid I have put together in my short time in the biz. (almost 2 years, 48 jobs) Olger has it figured, but Olger is a master. With the experience to comfortably try as many foams as possible. Icynene is a slick, clean well known Brand name that if installed properly performs with excellence. If the claims that Icynene dealers and representatives have deliberately mislead clients is true than that is bad for the industry. And is not something I support. Though anecdotal evidence can only hold so much weight. cheers!
Luke Kujacznski Posted: Oct 03, 2007 08:55 PM	So guys check this out. I was out looking at a job today. The sale call slip said that these people had a cooler and were having some condensation problems. Well that is putting it mildly. what they have is a freezer that is 60x80. what the have installed is 5 inches of the big "I" sprayed on the ceiling with some sort of paint on top. the foam varies in thickness from 4 to 12 inches. The foam is completely saturated and frozen. There was standing water and frozen puddles on top of the foam. They said that in the summer it is not uncommon for there to be 4-5 inches of standing water on top of the foam. If they set there freezer above 10 degrees it rains in the freezer. We did some calculations and we figure there is between 10 and 30 tons of water in the attic. What are your thoughts gentlemen.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Oct 03, 2007 09:46 PM	What are my thoughts? About what you'd expect :).
Matt Ganz Posted: Oct 04, 2007 10:21 AM	"What are your thoughts gentlemen." Don't use any kind of open cell in a cooler application? Was the whole cooler sprayed with open cell, sides and top? Is there mechanical ventilation in a set up like that? My newb factor limits me as I have never sprayed a freezer/cooler. I am interested however because I have another business adventure (microbrewery) I am embarking on that will need a cooler. We are converting a seacontainer into a cooler and I will be spraying it. I honestly figured I would order a set of heatlok-soya 2llb for the job. cheers!
Posted: Oct 04, 2007 10:17 PM	...when the walls,,come tumbleing down...
Dave Strnad Posted: Oct 05, 2007 12:33 PM	Where are the mistruths coming from? Is it a few bad installers or is it techniques that have trickled down. Maybe it's not the dealers, maybe the customers just misunderstand. But why is it so consistant, it's not just once in a while it's all the time and even overlaps a few different dealers. 1) "Polyicynene" what the hell is this, is it ok to let someone believe they are getting something that doesn't exsist? Almost every job that I have bid that the Icynene dealers have bid the customer has used this term, and believes it is different foam. 2) "It's not open cell it's icynene" Call it good marketing, but this is a outright lie. And any variation such as avoiding the question are you bidding open cell or closed and an answer of "niether it's Icynene!" I will stop ranting, like I said I think it is a good 1/2 open cell foam. I'm just tired of arguing with customers after they get the other bids, about whether polyicynene exsists or not. and if i hear the phrase "it's not open or closed cell, it's Icynene" one more time I'm going to scream!! Anyway it usually works out especially when I hand over their product data sheet, which by the way is the only place that says it is 1/2 lb open cell foam.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Oct 07, 2007 07:28 PM	"But why is it so consistant, it's not just once in a while it's all the time and even overlaps a few different dealers." Could be the Kool-aid, Dave. olger
Matt Ganz Posted: Oct 08, 2007 01:31 AM	"Where are the myths coming from" Its not during the meet and greet, training week in Missisaugua at the Icynene headquarters. At least not the week I was there. The open cell structure of Icyene is constantly discussed. How could that not be in the discussion? Not once did they mention that I remember the name "polyicynene" The only claims made of product differentiation in performance or chemically were in house "wicking" tests next to Bio-Based and Demilec, over 30 days. And AHSRAE confirmed air infiltration rates next to Bio-Based and Demilec half pound. Icynene's head tech also stated that their mix was a tad less isocynate heavy than Demilec. The lead engineer Gabe Farkas when asked about open cell and closed cell comparisons stated simply, "that some applications are better for two pound and vice-versa" That doesn't sound like some company mission to slander closed cell. Obviously many here disagree and feel that closed cell is superior for all applications. And I am interested in their collective experience. Some may believe that Icynene is a corrupt company undermining anyone they can while delivering a poor product to consumers. But my partner has been spraying Icynene for nearly 17 years (includes a couple year stint with Demilec...due to a since rescinded territory issue.)And has yet to have been called back for any issues regarding the performance of Icynene or Demilec's open cell spray foam. This message has been brought to you by what some apparently consider a independent agent of the darkside. Alderon will be no more. cheers!
philip mullins Posted: Oct 08, 2007 11:10 AM	where are the myths coming from? have you ever visited the icynene website? it is full of lies. even states that icy does not wick water and closed cell does. not far from where it states that cc is a bad idea under a foof deck cause you wont know if you have a leak! how does that work? many discussions have been had on this forum, and others, concerning this topic. this is the first time i have seen any affiliated with the big i speak up. i always figured that was cause they know that we know better. lots of good points and legitimate concerns have been made. and while i agree with the concerns about the fallout for the whole industry, it is not my biggest concern. i know that i have a good product and while basf does not spend near the marketing dollars, i believe that i will succeed in this buisness regardless. my biggest concern is this... i live in the poorest state in the union. after katrina peeps have no choice but to rebuild. and the extra cost of spray foam is a stretch for most after being ripped off by thier insurance companies. but, many are willing to make that stretch cause they can see the many benefits of what is a new product in my area. and oc can not match the severe weather resistance of cc. though i do spray both. thier are many out of town contractors coming here and ripping folks off by making false promises about thier products and services, in every industry. and icy is no different. sure, thismay be bad for the industry, and my buisness in particular. whats worse is, as i stated before, this is the poorest state in the country but, the people in ms consistently have consistently donated more money to charities, year after year, than any other state. these are good peeps here. and i hate to see them get ripped off buy "clever marketing". my redneck mentality leads me to warn the icy guys not to let me catch them in a dark alley. and telling prospects that you will spray for 500 less than whatever my bid was, without even taking the time to measure the job, makes me wanna beet 'em till the white meat shows. other than that, i have no probs with the icy 'group'
Michael Flander Posted: Oct 09, 2007 03:25 PM	I believe you mean more money per capita, not total dollars. You guys definately have a unique situation in your area of the country,with so many out of state contractors and what not in the area, you are competing against more than a typical contractor would have to. I am sorry to hear that you run into those kinds of contractors, and wish you the best of luck with your business. Sounds like you truly care about what you do, good to see! The other contractors must respect your quoting abilities to be confident enough to just use your pricing.... :)
Rob Granger Posted: Oct 26, 2007 10:27 PM	Are the icy guys marketing that their foam does not need an ignition barrier?
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Oct 29, 2007 08:08 PM	Yes Yes: They have gone so far to "inform" building code officials that theirs is the only foam that doesn't burn. I have personally witnessed this phenomenon. oG