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Is it even possible to be this cheap!?!? Post New Topic | Post Reply

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quentin Posted: Dec 04, 2010 12:06 PM	Is it even possible to be this cheap!?!? I have lost a fair number of bids lately and after looking at it I see no way they can be doing this! A company that is pretty big and about 50 miles away is charging people $1.25 for 3in of closed cell. I see no way this can be possible when you look at material and labor costs on top of things like fuel and etc. Now they also do all the other kinds of insulation so the only thing I can figure is they make up a loss on foam in those areas to try and drive the little guys OOB. I have also had to warn a few people that they need to keep an eye on the their suggestions since they have also offered 1/2in of closed cell and then batts with craft paper vapro barrier. Luckily the local officials pointed out to one that to do so would cause serious moisture issues and they needed at least 2in of closed cell instead. How many others are seeing this kind of issue with the fiberjunk and other insulations pushing to get in to foam too?
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Dec 04, 2010 04:10 PM	Yeah, I've had a number of them come in and low ball me too lately. Some of our competitors use the $1.25 for the bait and then switch it to it's only a 1/2"-1" and then batts! We had one guy locally who bid 3" of open cell on the back side of the drywall and called it good. No wonder why the home owners assoc. called to complain! 3" of open cell isn't thick enough to stop the heat transfer. So, I quoted 6" of open cell and they quoted 3" and came in much lower than me - go figure! I'm sorry, but if I would have known that's what they were doing, I would have not bid it and made the home owners assoc. aware of the lack of insulation value in 3". I've since started working with the GC who was in charge of this job and started educating him on the foam stuff.
Bryan Kwater Posted: Dec 04, 2010 08:26 PM	The local big I dealer quotes 3 1/2" open cell and they have nice colorful literature that says that it has an "equivalent R-19" value. We are trying to compete using 3" closed cell in a 2x4 cavity to achieve the same value. Ain't gonna happen. Customers think foam is foam and guess who they believe when you try to explain the differences to them.
John Shockney Posted: Dec 05, 2010 10:54 AM	In this case the dealer is correct if you are comparing foam to fiberglass. When you test an R-19 bat of fiberglass at a cold plate temp of 20deg instead of the 50deg that the FTC test requires that R-19 bat tests at R-10, where R-19 of foam holds it’s R-value no matter if it is open or closed cell foam. But you still have a weak point in the wall system until you do something about the thermo bridging through the 2x4 studs, we need to do more to promote new wall construction and super insulated wall systems using spray foam. Thanks Airpro
quentin Posted: Dec 05, 2010 11:38 AM	Right now I am looking at the flash and foil system to help compete. Has anyone here used it and how did it work for you? Since the manufactures are not willing to push and dump the money to help people understand the differences with ads like fiberglass does, something needs to be done to improve things and help people realize the differences. As it stands they just look at the R values and costs which kills a ton of quotes no matter how well I try to educate them.
John Shockney Posted: Dec 05, 2010 01:01 PM	Quentin, Why would you consider promoting an inferior product that you don’t believe in?? Having sold a lot of products over the years I have found that it is very hard to sell something that you don’t truly love and believe in, unless you can be that used car salesman that the only way you can tell he is telling the truth is when his mouth is shut!! Thanks Airpro
Daniel X Posted: Dec 05, 2010 03:29 PM	Airpro makes a very good point. We need more double stud wall or similar construction to even make a wall that doesn't have a thermal bridge every 16". People doing the scabby foam and fibre, or open cell is this and that sales tactics will only last so long...
Bryan Kwater Posted: Dec 05, 2010 07:33 PM	I just can't figure out why the I dealers are the only ones that have this "relative R-value". If the closed cell foam manufactures had this value, we would be able to show actual comparisons between the products. As of right now, how do you convince someone that 3.5 inches of open cell is not equivalent to 3 inches of closed cell? The "R-19 relative value" is not the same as actual R-19. It's a lot easier to show people the differences if you have comparable numbers.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Dec 05, 2010 10:34 PM	Some unscrupulous "foamers" are adding water to closed cell resin to bump up the yield. This results in poor cell structure, compromised adhesion, and complete loss of warranty and dimensional stability. They hope that the contractor gets the drywall on immediately to cover their sins. Robinson out of Springfield has repeatedly bid closed cell jobs at near material cost. It will catch up with them (whatever the angle is). go gettum,
quentin Posted: Dec 06, 2010 07:44 AM	Thanks for the heads up on Robinson's! I know Moody and Moses are bidding the $1.25 and have seen them claim an R9 per inch on a couple of jobs. I just tell people the truth about the foams and that if they decide to go that route to check, double check and watch them then since their numbers do not add up to anything but lost money. That reminds me, you do polyureas too, right Olger?
steven argus Posted: Dec 06, 2010 12:20 PM	$1.25 !?! A big out fit around us is doing foam cheap, not that cheap though - wow! I believe they make it up with the fiberjunk, cellulose, drywall, fireplace inserts, steel studs, wedings and barmitsfas. Oh, and they also are distributors of all of the above. They also have 12 minimum wage guys to do all of the cleanup and prep. Huge turnover rate in the company. And on top of all that, there are local foamers buying foam from them. STOP IT!! Yes, I'm talking to you, you know who you are. All you're doing is helping them buy foam even cheaper!
Posted: Dec 06, 2010 10:29 PM	Yes, we hired someone the other day for a project that we built. 3-3 1/2" of Open Cell for $1.25 is what they charged. Sprayed the cavities then shaved excess. Unfortunately, that is the going price in this area.
steven argus Posted: Dec 07, 2010 11:02 AM	$1.25/SF of OC is O.K. But 3 inches of CC for $1.25 is just not possible.
Posted: Dec 08, 2010 12:53 AM	Missed that one completely! 3" Closed Cell for $1.25. Maybe they are spraying some of that 1.5 that I have been hearing about? Yield averages between 4000-4500 board ft / $1750.00 per set = Material cost of $1.31 @ 3 inches if you only get a 4000 board ft yield or $1.16 if you happen to get 4500 board feet out of a set. If they are selling at $1.25 sq. ft @ 3 inches of closed cell, they must be doing it for their brother in law!
Ivan Pauliuchenka Posted: Dec 09, 2010 12:49 PM	here is an idea... They buy foam for export price, which is ment just for outside US, and it is could go as low as $1,550 a set of #2 or even lower. Plus $0.25 for cheap ass labor and here is $1.25 for you... if they have the way to this legal - why not? You`ve got bad ass competition then. You mentioned it is BIG companies, right? So they might. Way to fight this - call financial investigation on company as they can get in trouble for doing so.
quentin Posted: Dec 14, 2010 10:57 AM	Jeeze!!! I hear one more case of Moody and Moses saying .5in of closed cell with batts over i am going to scream! These idiots are going to kill the industry when that foam sweats up here and the walls are full of mold as a result. No idea who their supplier is but the companies that supply these types need to cut them off before these types destroy the industry. we do a premium product people and you do it RIGHT instead of cheap to compete with less effective products instead of going the cheapest way you can when it will not work right and be a health hazzard for the home oners later. No idea if others have had the problem but I have already had several builders say they won't touch foam because it CAUSES mold supposedly! All because companies like this do it cheap instead of RIGHT! OK, rant over.
Posted: Dec 14, 2010 02:38 PM	I'm with you quentin! I think I'm relatively lucky in my area in that I hear about the low-ball Jones once in a while and I just tell them good luck. Quoted a job for 3" closed cell in 2x4 walls last week and it came to $6500. The GC tells me "you are thousands off!" OK, if your happy with your current guy keep it up and good luck to him cause he's giving it away! I will have no part of that game that is for sure!
John Shockney Posted: Dec 14, 2010 06:09 PM	There is a big foam contractor in Ft Wayne that has been big in the flash and bat system for many years (over 20) they have the same people that are selling overhead doors and siding selling their flash and bat system. Because of their sales staff I have customers ask for this kind of application all the time, but when I explain that most foam manufactures don’t recommend that you spray foam in less than one-inch lifts (to get the proper chemical mix) and I can spray 3.5 inches of open cell (that will out perform any flash and bat system) for the same money as 1 inch of closed cell I usually get the job. But keep in mind most of the time I am talking to owner builders not general contractors, I still haven’t been able to break into that market most GC’s are just too cheep to sell foam to their customers. The only thing else I can say is to be honest with your customer, the informed customer will check the net for more answers and sales is a numbers game so don’t get discouraged if someone says no. If you are closing 1 out of 10 that’s better than the car salesman is doing you just need to talk to more people. Airpro
philip mullins Posted: Feb 04, 2011 04:04 PM	happening everywhere. they can put a hurting on the little guy thats trying to sell it right. they sometimes switch it to flash and batt cause the contract is selling rvalue. and they make a ton on fiberglass. but, heres the real angle. they are a bigger co so they get more perks for going green. they are on fed and state programs for creating jobs, especially green ones. and dont forget, they are making a ton on fiberglass, so they are paying more in taxes. so if they lose $ in foam that loss is just a deduction and that much less they have to pay at the end of the year. so their not really losing money.