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Posted: Oct 15, 2008 07:04 PM	Need help really bad shrinkage!!! I have a problem I am spraying half pound fl-500 and it shinks away from the studs bad and won't stick. Now I mixed it for 1 hour changed the heat temps to every thing possible changed the psi. It still just shinks. I was on the phone with cpi tech on and off all day... It was like 55 degrees outside. I have sprayed with this foam when its much colder out and never had this problem. I tried on sheetrock,osb,styrofoam.Anyone have had bad chemical? Its all I can think of.. any ideas?
SprayFoamSupply.com Posted: Oct 15, 2008 08:21 PM	From my experience, when .5lb shrinks, it is being sprayed too hot. I can not speak for fl500 as I have never sprayed it, but I would guess it is the same. I had a contractor today having this issue. Come to find out, he is having an equipment issue and his machine is overheating the material. Could your machine be malfunctioning and spraying the foam hotter than you think? You could also have too much moisture in the substrate that could cause adheasion and shrinkage issues. Hope this helps, George
Posted: Oct 15, 2008 09:52 PM	Osb was dry no humidity. All the techs I spoke with today kept telling me it needed to be hotter? I think what you are saying makes sense. It foams up nice when it hits the wall then just shrinks down and pulls away ALOT. I have seen it shrink some before but never like this. I guess cooler is the only thing I didn't try thanks!
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Oct 15, 2008 09:55 PM	We had some shrinkage today with LaPolla .5-pound. We thought it was because the roofers were beating on the roof, but perhaps not..? Don't know yet..
Posted: Oct 15, 2008 10:43 PM	Well do you know the production date thats what they started with for me. I am convinced that the chemical is the problem I tried everything I mean everything and couldn't fix the problem hopefully they have good answers for me in the morning. Just never had this happen ever with their product
Posted: Oct 16, 2008 06:34 AM	kappy,,could be a crappy lot...if you got more resin of the same number,,,ask em to swap you out,,if they dont,,,remember,,this world is built on relationships,,,remind them of that.. oh yeah,,mr obvious here,,,is this right at start up,,and if so are you preheating and recircin??if not,,you should george is dead on about the settleing back thingy and lowering your temps...try about 3 degrees at a time on the hose heat till the sag back just stops,,,if you lower the hose heat more than 5 degrees,,then lower your main heats 5 degrees... ger...saw the same thing a while ago...crappy lot...short lived,,,thank you god!! use it to seal a lid and move on... 'dude
Posted: Oct 16, 2008 01:02 PM	I wanted to take a amount to try and set the record straight. After looking into this situation, I found that the material that was being sprayed was almost 6 months old. Too many times the material is blamed for scenarios that we as manufacturer's cannot control. When foam ages the first property that is lost is reactivity. When this occurs with a product that is formulated as a closed cell product this issue is not as significant because the foam is formulated to produce a stable closed cell foam. When dealing with open cell foams the issue is more significant because the speed of the reactivity creates pressure that forces the cell to open during the reaction. If there is not enough catalyst to produce this pressure the cell will remain closed. If the cell remains closed it will shrink as the cell loses CO2 through the cell wall as it cools and ambient air is unable to replace the CO2 fast enough. The other effect of ageing foams is that the by product of the catalyst reaction that causes the reduced reactivity is the creation of a product that attack the surfactant. If the surfactant breaks down it will cause irregular cell formation, poor mix and friability further reduing the adhesion and increasing the shrinkage. The typical shelf life of Resin components which do not require agitation during application or a catalyst to be blended prior to use and agitation supplied is 3 months. This three month period becomes shorter if the material reaches 85 degrees or higher as this pushes the hydrolysis reaction at an elevated rate. The hydrolysis reaction is what is responsible for the loss of reactivity in the early stages and complete loss of cell structure in the longer term In closed cell formulations it is sometimes possible to reactivate the reaction to the proper levels. With all water blown systems this is much harder to accomplish due to the high levels of water, catalyst and polyester polyols that are participating in the reaction.
Posted: Oct 16, 2008 05:41 PM	The foam was almost 6 months old, BUT I ordered it from CPI in the end of Augest and got it and then when I had the problem I looked on the lable and it was from a May batch. So I got the product when it was 3 months old to start.
Posted: Oct 17, 2008 04:58 AM	...manufacturers cant control??? whatever!!! before i knew better i was the dumping ground for old foam by most of the manufacturerers... they knew they had a newbee and dumped the old crap on me as quick as i could order it and fight with it trying to get it to spray.. and shall we talk about recatalyzed catpiss smellin foam too??? have you heard of rotating stock with your supply reps rather than dumpin it into the world? hell no???would cost you to much in fuel to return,,so dump it into the world you do... i do not accept a delivery of resin that is more than 1 month old..wont take it off the truck,,not my problem where it goes then,,, sell fresh product... remove and reblend old product from your supply line.. do not charge a premium for "winter blends" that yeild less and cost more so we can make you income in the winter when this is a struggle in and of itself(you should be discounting us for havin the nuts to work in the cold weathere with urethanes!!!) and yes,,you do get the boot many times when there is noone else to blame...thank you for that.. 'dude
Posted: Oct 17, 2008 01:43 PM	Dude: We certaintly don't intend to dump any old material on our customers. Our company is made up of several individuals who care about your success as well as all LaPolla's customer's success. We respect the fact that our customer's have taken a risk to start a small business and want to do all that we can to help each and everyone of our customer's succeed. I have been in touch with Kappy and intend to help him through this issue. With regard to shipping old material back, yes it is expensive and typically it is not necessary since all of our material is manufacutured at the time of the order and the inventory we keep in our 10 warehouses across the US and in our distributors warehouses typically moves very quickly. We will look into a program of rotating slow moving stock and see if we can come up with a program that doesn't drastically affect our overall cost to get our products to market. In the future, please contact as soon as possible when issues like these arise and we will do all that we can to help. Thank you for your business and feedback. I promise we will do all that we can to implement your suggestions. Sincerely, Kurt Behner
Posted: Oct 20, 2008 09:03 PM	siding with L here- the point of purchase is where the axe should be ground. let them do the bitchin for you and from my experience & based on your posts, the point of purchase is already having a conversation with L regarding your situation. point one-the distributor having earned your business should continue to do so by aiding you with the settling of this process. L has proven to ME several times in the past that they are willing to suck it up and do what's right provided that I did the same. keep fighting good luck
David Swatkowski Posted: Oct 22, 2008 07:48 PM	We all know by now that LaPolla's FL 500 open cell system is the best out there hands down. So if you have some old material semd it back and get some fresh stuff it will work like a dream.. MN. REP.

Author

Comments

Posted: Oct 15, 2008 07:04 PM

Need help really bad shrinkage!!!

I have a problem I am spraying half pound fl-500 and it shinks away from the studs bad and won't stick. Now I mixed it for 1 hour changed the heat temps to every thing possible changed the psi. It still just shinks. I was on the phone with cpi tech on and off all day... It was like 55 degrees outside. I have sprayed with this foam when its much colder out and never had this problem. I tried on sheetrock,osb,styrofoam.Anyone have had bad chemical? Its all I can think of.. any ideas?

SprayFoamSupply.com

Posted: Oct 15, 2008 08:21 PM

From my experience, when .5lb shrinks, it is being sprayed too hot. I can not speak for fl500 as I have never sprayed it, but I would guess it is the same. I had a contractor today having this issue. Come to find out, he is having an equipment issue and his machine is overheating the material. Could your machine be malfunctioning and spraying the foam hotter than you think? You could also have too much moisture in the substrate that could cause adheasion and shrinkage issues.

Hope this helps,

George

Posted: Oct 15, 2008 09:52 PM

Osb was dry no humidity. All the techs I spoke with today kept telling me it needed to be hotter? I think what you are saying makes sense. It foams up nice when it hits the wall then just shrinks down and pulls away ALOT. I have seen it shrink some before but never like this. I guess cooler is the only thing I didn't try thanks!

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Oct 15, 2008 09:55 PM

We had some shrinkage today with LaPolla .5-pound.

We thought it was because the roofers were beating on the roof, but perhaps not..? Don't know yet..

Posted: Oct 15, 2008 10:43 PM

Well do you know the production date thats what they started with for me. I am convinced that the chemical is the problem I tried everything I mean everything and couldn't fix the problem hopefully they have good answers for me in the morning. Just never had this happen ever with their product

Posted: Oct 16, 2008 06:34 AM

kappy,,could be a crappy lot...if you got more resin of the same number,,,ask em to swap you out,,if they dont,,,remember,,this world is built on relationships,,,remind them of that..

oh yeah,,mr obvious here,,,is this right at start up,,and if so are you preheating and recircin??if not,,you should

george is dead on about the settleing back thingy and lowering your temps...try about 3 degrees at a time on the hose heat till the sag back just stops,,,if you lower the hose heat more than 5 degrees,,then lower your main heats 5 degrees...

ger...saw the same thing a while ago...crappy lot...short lived,,,thank you god!! use it to seal a lid and move on...

'dude

Posted: Oct 16, 2008 01:02 PM

I wanted to take a amount to try and set the record straight. After looking into this situation, I found that the material that was being sprayed was almost 6 months old. Too many times the material is blamed for scenarios that we as manufacturer's cannot control.

When foam ages the first property that is lost is reactivity. When this occurs with a product that is formulated as a closed cell product this issue is not as significant because the foam is formulated to produce a stable closed cell foam. When dealing with open cell foams the issue is more significant because the speed of the reactivity creates pressure that forces the cell to open during the reaction. If there is not enough catalyst to produce this pressure the cell will remain closed. If the cell remains closed it will shrink as the cell loses CO2 through the cell wall as it cools and ambient air is unable to replace the CO2 fast enough.

The other effect of ageing foams is that the by product of the catalyst reaction that causes the reduced reactivity is the creation of a product that attack the surfactant. If the surfactant breaks down it will cause irregular cell formation, poor mix and friability further reduing the adhesion and increasing the shrinkage.

The typical shelf life of Resin components which do not require agitation during application or a catalyst to be blended prior to use and agitation supplied is 3 months. This three month period becomes shorter if the material reaches 85 degrees or higher as this pushes the hydrolysis reaction at an elevated rate. The hydrolysis reaction is what is responsible for the loss of reactivity in the early stages and complete loss of cell structure in the longer term

In closed cell formulations it is sometimes possible to reactivate the reaction to the proper levels. With all water blown systems this is much harder to accomplish due to the high levels of water, catalyst and polyester polyols that are participating in the reaction.

Posted: Oct 16, 2008 05:41 PM

The foam was almost 6 months old, BUT I ordered it from CPI in the end of Augest and got it and then when I had the problem I looked on the lable and it was from a May batch. So I got the product when it was 3 months old to start.

Posted: Oct 17, 2008 04:58 AM

...manufacturers cant control???
whatever!!!
before i knew better i was the dumping ground for old foam by most of the manufacturerers...
they knew they had a newbee and dumped the old crap on me as quick as i could order it and fight with it trying to get it to spray..
and shall we talk about recatalyzed catpiss smellin foam too???

have you heard of rotating stock with your supply reps rather than dumpin it into the world?
hell no???would cost you to much in fuel to return,,so dump it into the world you do...

i do not accept a delivery of resin that is more than 1 month old..wont take it off the truck,,not my problem where it goes then,,,

sell fresh product...
remove and reblend old product from your supply line..
do not charge a premium for "winter blends" that yeild less and cost more so we can make you income in the winter when this is a struggle in and of itself(you should be discounting us for havin the nuts to work in the cold weathere with urethanes!!!)

and yes,,you do get the boot many times when there is noone else to blame...thank you for that..

'dude

Posted: Oct 17, 2008 01:43 PM

Dude:

We certaintly don't intend to dump any old material on our customers. Our company is made up of several individuals who care about your success as well as all LaPolla's customer's success.

We respect the fact that our customer's have taken a risk to start a small business and want to do all that we can to help each and everyone of our customer's succeed.

I have been in touch with Kappy and intend to help him through this issue.

With regard to shipping old material back, yes it is expensive and typically it is not necessary since all of our material is manufacutured at the time of the order and the inventory we keep in our 10 warehouses across the US and in our distributors warehouses typically moves very quickly. We will look into a program of rotating slow moving stock and see if we can come up with a program that doesn't drastically affect our overall cost to get our products to market.

In the future, please contact as soon as possible when issues like these arise and we will do all that we can to help.

Thank you for your business and feedback. I promise we will do all that we can to implement your suggestions.

Sincerely,

Kurt Behner

Posted: Oct 20, 2008 09:03 PM

siding with L here-
the point of purchase is where the axe should be ground. let them do the bitchin for you and from my experience & based on your posts, the point of purchase is already having a conversation with L regarding your situation. point one-the distributor having earned your business should continue to do so by aiding you with the settling of this process. L has proven to ME several times in the past that they are willing to suck it up and do what's right provided that I did the same. keep fighting

good luck

David Swatkowski

Posted: Oct 22, 2008 07:48 PM

We all know by now that LaPolla's FL 500 open cell system is the best out there hands down. So if you have some old material semd it back and get some fresh stuff it will work like a dream..

MN. REP.

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