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New Insulation Value testing and the fiberglass industry Post New Topic | Post Reply

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jimcoler Posted: Jan 09, 2011 10:30 PM	New Insulation Value testing and the fiberglass industry OK, I know i've been posting a lot about this on the other forums and I figured I'd post it here and try to gain some additional support. SO, there are really three issues: 1. the R-value measurement - measuring conductive heat transfer and not taking convective, radiant heat transfer or thermal mass into consideration. 2. the codes which are largely and unfairly influenced by the fiberglass companies. 3. The fiberglass companies which have lots of money and lawyers to fight whatever approach we take. So, where do we go from here? How do we come up with a new measurement system and upset the apple cart being pushed by the fiberglass industry? I'm open for any input and looking any help here!!! Jim
steven argus Posted: Jan 10, 2011 09:47 AM	You have my support! Jim for president! I'm just a simple redneck foamer, what can I do? I do believe our time will come. It's inevetable that foam will take over, question is, when? When is the last time you saw a 50% effecient furnace/ boiler installed? Or single pane windows installed. Next year, you won't be able to buy an incandesant light bulb. All appliances have an erergy star rating, why doesn't insulation? Very soon, the general public and our wonderful government will realize how much energy that fiberglass wastes. Anything we can do to speed up the process would be huge for us all. Jim, where do we start?!!?
quentin Posted: Jan 10, 2011 10:23 AM	Start like me and piss off the NIMA so they have lawyers send you threatneing letters! LOL I have the reports from Oakridge National Labratory showing fiberglass is killed by an average 27% of the R value as soon as it is installed. This is before anything like air infiltration or etc is involved.
quentin Posted: Jan 10, 2011 05:43 PM	Start by pissing off the National Insulation Manufacture's Association and telling them to go ahead and sue you like I did. It seems they get REALLY pissed if you dare to post the study done by Oakridge National Labratory showing fiberglass drops 17% of the R value on a PERFECT install and 27% on an average one as soon as it is installed. Laugh at them and then post a copy of the threatening letter with your response to your company site or etc where they claim the study is biased and was funded by the SPFA with the science in it bogus. I shoudl have written back but I made the mistake of just calling and laughing at the lawyer when he threatened to take it to court and put me out of business unless I pulled the study and all the other claims they didn't like about it being better than fiberglass. Lawyers do not like it when you laugh at them while they are trying to threaten you and scare you. They also do not like it when you tell them to go ahead and sue instead of caving in to their demands and laugh saying you WANT them to do it since you could use the money from hammering them over false claims, threats and a frivilous lawsuit that would bury their firm and their BAR. Of course also challenging them to actually EAT some of that "safe" fiberglass at a show in front of their customers when they tell BS about the safety and effectiveness of their product and watching them get pissed and fid excuses to not do it while you are chewing on a piece of foam gets their reps upset too. Gained a good bit of interest from that demo at a home show once when I heard they guy saying BS to people on my way to the men's room.
steven argus Posted: Jan 10, 2011 06:33 PM	ROFLMFAO!!! Eating foam @ a show. Priceless. Quentin for V.P.
Circle-D Posted: Jan 10, 2011 10:43 PM	Jim, How about starting with a blower door standard value for all new construction. If each new building had to meet a certain CFM/SQ FT it would at least cut down on the air infiltration making whatever the chosen insulation work more effectivly. Make this inspection a "hold" point before drywall is installed. That way if it does not meet requirements it can be remedied with out extensive demolition. Am I looking for the end of the rainbow here?
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Jan 10, 2011 10:53 PM	There are a couple of problems with this approach! 1. is that you can improve the air sealing of the building by doing flash and batt (crap) insulation system! I don't agree with this system and the use of it anywhere North of Washington DC because of the colder weather we can all have!! 2. Where is the air infiltration/exfiltration coming from? You can reduce the air infiltration according to the blower door but still have air infiltration/exfiltration in some areas which then leads to condensation problems. So, just measuring the amount of air infiltration /exfiltration isn't enough when you don't know where it's coming in/going out at! But it's along the right track! It could be a good start! Keep thinking and I'm open! Jim
steven argus Posted: Jan 11, 2011 09:12 AM	Manditory blower door tests only add to the cost. Skip, can you imagine a whole day of your time for testing and paper work? I for one would not want to spend the time and money to become blower door certified. Even a rookie applicator can make a building tighter, just by spraying foam. Maybe not a beutiful job - but effective. Tighter than filterglass can ever be. Blower doors are great tools for existing construction. New construction, You spray foam from foundation to ridge, silicone all the cracks and can foam the windows - tight house.
Posted: Jan 11, 2011 07:33 PM	cripes.. indeed... show me the numbers... (its the next question)
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Jan 11, 2011 08:21 PM	Numbers??? What numbers are we talking about? What's the next question? I'm not sure all of this should be shared with SPFA as I can't see them doing anything with it - except blocking it with the fiberglass guys. It's time for a new organization to take over and I'm al for sprayfoammagazine.com!!
Posted: Jan 12, 2011 07:12 AM	yeah jim have at it big boy,, lets see what you can do... good luck with it... but to claim i can make em tight,,cause i can just dont fly,,at least round here,, show em the numbers show em performance,,, show em that the upgrade is worth the $$ or they wont spend the money... at least round here,,,,
steven argus Posted: Jan 12, 2011 02:16 PM	Ok, Ok. I'm Ok w/ blower door tests as long as they make it mandatory for ALL insulation contractors. Including fibercrap guys. We always take our governments word for energy star ratings. foamdude, you like numbers, you can be treasurer.LOL
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Jan 12, 2011 10:20 PM	Numbers, numbers! Everyone wants to see numbers but what good does it do when the numbers are there and the customer still has problems? I've seen it with some of the flash and batt stuff out there. They meet the numbers and still have mold, mildew and condensation issues within the walls or the underside of the roof. So, I, all for numbers but not sure what numbers are best for our industry right now. Just doing a blower door doesn't guarantee that it will be done right and it does ad a lot of time. I know because I am blower door certified and have done it - as a matter of fact I'm doing one tomorrow! SO, what are some of the other numbers we can measure that will tell the customer that their getting a good job - that won't take long to do? Jim
Terry Adams Posted: Jan 13, 2011 12:09 AM	Numbers might get it but one size won't fit all, doors, windows, hvac, life style, etc.. People think more r-value = energy savings. We can measure the performance of the wall with insulation, and produce the data of different systems (glass, cell, cc, oc) under different conditions. Post the data to a site like this one and maybe with a calculator. Give our customers every option with a rating system we create. Maybe like hotels, resturants, etc.
quentin Posted: Jan 13, 2011 10:43 AM	There HAS to be something created since we know fiberglass just doesn't work. There is plenty of research and other information out there shoing this. Now the local code officials are requiring we do a REXcheck of a building to even get approval though we are only doing the walls. So now we have to waste a bunch of time getting all the windows values, the insulation in the attic that will likely be blown in due to the high pitch they love around here and calculating everything. I asked about the reasons and it turns out other companies like edwards/mooney and moses out of Columbus are spreading a bunch of BS about foam screwing the rest of us. Of course guess who does fibercrap, cellulous and flass and batt bs all over the area? Let me do the work I love and stop making me either waste time on my own dime or having to increase prices even more to the point we can't compete! Rant over!
Posted: Jan 13, 2011 02:31 PM	uh quentin fill the forms out for the scope of YOUR work and hand it back to the general for the other subs to fill out for them to fill the scope of THIER work.. your getting jerked by the filterglass folks and by the general contractor here,,,
quentin Posted: Jan 13, 2011 02:42 PM	Guy is his own general contractor and this is his first time using foam. If I can get in with him then it is a long term profit I will be making. Just really pisses me off that the inspectors are suddenly chaning their requirements on me when there are no new code or other changes.
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Jan 13, 2011 04:34 PM	But there is! Don't you know that foam is hazardous and combustible and requires a 15 minute thermal barrier? Don't you know that R-value is the only way to measure insulation? Don't you know that you have to have an outside supplied mask on in order to spray foam and be safe? These are all changes to the code and changes to our industry that will affect each and every one of us! How can I compete with a guy who still does hand writen estimates without any detail and gets away with it?