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Michael Fusco Posted: Jan 21, 2010 08:12 PM	New Organization....Are You Interested Is anyone interested in helping to start. or joining a new organization whose primary focus will be for applicators? Tired of SPFA sticking it to us? Tired of some manufacturers getting away with murder? How about it....anyone game?
Alan Fagerstrom Posted: Jan 22, 2010 03:40 PM	I'd like to know more of what you have in mind
Michael Fusco Posted: Jan 22, 2010 06:30 PM	I am thinking an organization which is run by applicators for training, safety, and the like. An organization who fosters the use of foam, both open and closed cell who is not controlled by any special interest or single, or small group of manufacturers. I would imagine manufacturers could be members, but the board should not be a board you can buy your way onto, but rather elected volunteers from among primary applicator members. Perhaps SPFA the way it was supposed to be.
Posted: Jan 22, 2010 07:01 PM	uman?? are you an spfa member,,now or in the past???
Michael Fusco Posted: Jan 22, 2010 07:08 PM	I am a current member, but probably won't be for long.
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 10:20 AM	uman,,,unfortunately,,or not,,most of the professional trade organizations are industry supported,,and subsequently the industry frequently has influence and inroads into the direction and mandates tendered by said organizations... it "has to be that way"...it is about the $$$,, our dues, though "expensive" in the contractors eyes really doesnt support the day to day operations of a "real" professional entity... that being said,,,i,,like you,,, have not been happy with some of the current direction/mandates being handed down by our organization,,to be moronic,,,i too agree there has been a fair amount of bootykissin goin on,,,i too wish that once in a while a big,,NOWAY,,would be tendered,,instead of "lets see what we can do to accomodate"....and my monies spent on substantiateing the NOWAY statement, that being said,,the spfa openly welcomes any members who wish to be invloved in their committees,,subcommittees...they recieve very little responses,,put your name out there and you will be contacted if you are a member... now consider this...i believe the entity you suggest is needed as well,,,have been kickin it around for years... how about forming your own state level "urethane contractors group" to educate, train,,and more important to me regulate the folks in your own local area that are doing far more to damage your reputation and spray foams reputation with their halfassed applications,,,& blatantly dishonest claims,,,these folks are doing more to damage your future than any of the mandates/referendoms being handed down by the spfa....they do have the industries best intrest at heart,,spray foam is way larger than just spray foam..plastics is plastics,,,safety is safety...self regulation is needed... i shot an arrow in the air it ended up stuck in my underware burma shave
Thomas Tisthammer Posted: Jan 24, 2010 05:21 PM	Have any of you fellows looked into he Alpha Program @ ASU? It compares contractors on their performance as rated by their customers & therefore doesn't require input from the vendors. It simply identifies those contractors that are able to satisfy their clients. The problem I have seen with any trade organization is that they are not usually willing to differentiate between good applicators/applications & bad ones. This is because, as you point out, vendors are so deeply involved. There is substantial liability for them if they do so.... There are about 10-15 contractors in the program, most of which are members of the SPFA as well. Have a look at http://www.pbsrg.com/research/alpha/index.html & tell me what you think.
quentin Posted: Jan 26, 2010 08:15 PM	I dumped the SPFA too because they did more for the manufactures than us. It seems neither can understand that unless they are willing to help get the word out on a superior product and help clear up the BS for people or with things like the insurance industry that tries to blled us dry too. I hear they are spraying a lot in Afghanistan and may look at that market since it is less BS!
Posted: Jan 26, 2010 09:24 PM	Hey Bad Pattern Most of the Alpha's have dropped out since its inception back in the 90's because it is inneffective. If you do.... Get ready to Belly up $10K or better for the Alpha Program. You are going to be paying for those phone calls to your customers and when it all boils down to it, only the US Army requires Alpha. All the rest of the jobs are "Cheapest bid wins".
Posted: Jan 26, 2010 09:30 PM	quentin,,respectfully,, the spfa does a great job promoting this product,,,facts is facts,,, the industry pays the way..like it or not... our dues dont pay the office electric bill (or lumary's beer tab in orlando..rofl) it is the unrealistic claims by well intentioned but uneducated newbees that scare the hell out of the spfa and the vendors... read this as liablility,,, read this as physics is physics.. read this as modeling shows... if your reference to the insurance industry is regarding the "health care reform"...it cant happen with out "tort reform" and as long as most of our elected officials are lawyers it aint gonna happen...i would luv to beal about this more,,locked,,,&******ed and ready to rock,,,pull my trigger.... i think i'll sign this one,,, freindly-fire ps: how is that hope and change goin for ya anyway??? pss: afganhistan to spray foam???oh my god i just wet myself!!!!...build your market in your home town,,it can be done,,,you just have to believe and click your heels... theres no place like home theres no place like home theres no place like home.... oh my friggin word this aint kansas toto!!!!
Thomas Tisthammer Posted: Jan 28, 2010 07:37 PM	Actually, most of the original core members are still in the Alpha program. It is a voluntary program so contractors come & go. Many have joined thinking it was a "leads" program & those folks don't last very long. It is still the only program that measures contractor performance for the owner. As far as the $10K goes I have had to pay about $1,500 a year on average to have my data verified & the results posted on the net. It still costs more than that to do a direct mailing of any size. I have more than recouped my costs by responses from their website. The main complaint on this forum seems to be about unqualified contractors messing up the market. How else are you going to tell the difference between the good & the bad if you don't have an independent group compare them? Are you saying you prefer the "cheapest bid wins" system? I try to avoid those jobs if I can because we don't often get them.
Thomas Tisthammer Posted: Jan 28, 2010 07:37 PM
Michael Fusco Posted: Jan 29, 2010 08:35 AM	Guys...the idea was for an organization, which includes both manufacturers and applicators, but which would be "steered" (read managed) by the applicators, for the promotion of spray foam in all areas. I was taking on the organization of the organization, then backing away when a steering committee was formed. If you think SPFA promotes for you, just wait until the full weight and effect of the new Appendix X and the OSHA approach to ISO is felt....your gonna ache in places you never ached before. I agree self regulation is needed, but that regulation has to be tempered with the KNOWLEDGE of what we do, and how we do it, not by the fear of manufacturers protecting their niches and tech folks who never pulled a trigger. This was an idea....if no one is interested, that's ok to.
Michael Fusco Posted: Jan 29, 2010 08:41 AM	Oh...by the way foam. I wish your statements were 100% accurate. I have been a member of SPFA for years. I have watched the industry let special interests control the organization, and watched individuals cut out of committees because they did not agree with the "company line". Did you knw that to be a member of the steering committee, you only have to pay a higher dues rate? That's right, you buy the seat! Not the way I want to be represented. Maybe we can change that....but I bet we can't.
Posted: Jan 29, 2010 08:24 PM	Hey Bad Pattern My information was coming from a Grad student that use to work on the program and its overall effectiveness. What is the $1500.00 a year based on? I'm interested, so dont think I am nitpicking
Thomas Tisthammer Posted: Jan 30, 2010 09:11 PM	bb- Is costs abt $2,500 to have your data verified every 2 years ($1,250) & a trip to the Alpha conference every year in AZ (recently held in concert with the SPFA show so if you are already going to the show, I split it 50/50 for $250-500). For this I get a ASU website posting of my performance line & notification of all Alpha projects country wide. I know when I compete on an Alpha job that it will be a level playing field based on performance & price. I think that that is about as good as it gets in this industry. I know that some vendors have offerd "scholarships" to the program if you are a loyal customer. The program gets in front of prospective clients that I could never reach any other way & would not ever even consider talking to a roofer or salesman. It is not for everyone but it is the only alternative to the traditional marketing system. That traditional system has been able to deliver only 5% of the roofing market to the SPF industry during my 30 years in the industry & that is not enough for me.
quentin Posted: Jan 31, 2010 09:20 PM	Foamdude, the issues was exactly as others noted about who has any power or control over the organization. Manufactures don't rally give a squat about those in the field selling an dspraying, they only care about protecting their rears and selling foam to sprayers. As a result the SPFA seems to care about them and for anyone who sprays and tries to sell it to the actual people enjoying the benifits, well we are at the end of their cares chart. As for Afghanistan, I checked in to it and the money they make puts us out of debt and with a nice financial cushin for the company in less than 6 months. Plus I pull it off we can use that to improve our setup and base for customers here in the backyard. Spraying crawlspaces and attics helps but until they start a lot more building and the fiberboys raise their labor rates back above the illegal immigrant payscale we are seeing them get away with, it is mostly float above water at the moment for us smaller sprayers.
Posted: Feb 02, 2010 05:06 AM	quentin,,i intend to address yours and the others concerns at the spfa general meeting..(along with a few other concerns,,hope i dont drop the f-bomb,,i hate public speaking)hope they dont escort me to the door...but i will stand up and ask on your behalf,,and see what the response is,, and then we will go dancin,,, (this otta be good..rofl) 'dude
Posted: Feb 07, 2010 03:55 AM	quentin et all: i would be pleased to address your questions/concerns to the spfa at the general meeting,,, if you would care to email me your questions/concerns so i can put them into a logical form for presentation i will see what i can do and what answers i can get if they dont throw me out the door..rofl... 'dude
quentin Posted: Feb 11, 2010 03:37 AM	I'll keep it simple. The SPFA needs to get out there and get people like the Army Corps of Engineers updated on foam compared to tother products, push to get the mishmash of regulations from building code officials all over the place strait so you don't have an OK for something from one official and two blocks over it is a no-go, get spray foam seperated in the codes from the other stuff and start helping us little guys. We can't spray what we can't sell and the SPFA as well as manufactures need to realize that. Telling us the products are great makes no difference since it is the end consumer and big architects that need to know about us. Heck, I talked with the US Army Corps of Engineers at a couple of branches and they had barely heard of spray foam but had no idea of what it could do or where it could be used. Not these are the largest single building groups in the USA taking care of all new building and remodeling/refurbishing of all federal government buildings in the US. Not exactly a small market we shouldn't be looking at as a big targets by the SPFA and manufactures.
Terry Adams Posted: Feb 11, 2010 10:45 AM	If the spfa has all or most of the manufacturers as members why don't they run some generic commercials for spray foam and let them pay for it. Is it the mentality that if they promote their product that other manufacturers will benefit? They appear that to think that flooding the market with inexperienced foamers pushing their product will create a trickle up profit for them. It ain't working, 9 out of 10 construction jobs here are using conventional. The product proves itself when installed properly but one idiot doing a bad job or just presenting himself as a professional foamer can kill a lot of potential jobs.
Thomas Tisthammer Posted: Feb 14, 2010 08:46 AM	Fellows, One more comment & then I'll leave it alone. I'm talking about the roofing side of the business here.... If you believe in the free market & free market principles, you must agree that the reason we have only 5% of the roofing market is because there is no more demand than that for our product. The question then becomes; "Why is this the case?". It is simple: the perception of SPF in the roofing marketplace is that it is a poorly performing system. This is, as many have pointed out, a matter of education. However, the education that is needed is not of the consumer but of the applicators. We are all trying to make a living in a marketplace that can't tell the difference between a "good" applicator & a "bad" applicator. "Good" & "bad" are determined by the person who pays for the installed product, no one else. So, as long as we have dissatified end users we will have no larger market share. It is not the SPF manufacturers or other industry vendors that are responsible for the current state of the market; it is us, the applicators. It doesn't matter if "the SPF vendor sold me the wrong foam", "I followed the directions on the label", or other versions of "they made me/told me to do it", as long as we persist in trying to put the liability for our mistakes onto someone else we will see no change in the industry. Until we start installing better products in a more professional manner things will remain the same. Accreditation was designed to help this problem by providing education for applicators, salesmen & consultants but it can go only so far. If the educational process doesn't equip us with the tools to choose & properly install high quality products it is of little value. Expecting the SPF & other industry vendors to serve our interests before theirs is dreaming....
Michael Fusco Posted: Feb 14, 2010 09:13 PM	All right.....now I'm really confused. So the manufacturers have no stake in you being successsful? They just educate you and the applicators don't catch on, or want to catch on? Systems perform poorly because the applicator is not educated to its proper application. So why do manufacturers sell to unqualified applicators? Why does not the industry association offer training that is meaningful. Did any of you "good" applicators learn to spray foam in a classroom? Here's a newflash for you pattern. Manufactirers sell to "bad" applicators because there are sooo many of them. As a matter of fact MOST of them are not good applicators, because MOST of the sales folks teaching them don't know what the hell they are doing. Edication is the key...but if no one offers good education, how do you learn by any other method than the "spray and hope" method of the past? And if we are going to sell jobs on the cheap...who is not going to cut corners on every place possible to survive? The blame is with both the applicators and the manufacturers. Please...SPFA...is supposed to be the trade organization that fosters education to the applicator and uses the input of the manufacturers to cause that education. Maybe some day........ I'm done now....