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Lars Andersen Posted: Feb 13, 2008 12:58 PM	"Open cell and closed cell debate" I am a heating manufacturer and make recomendations daily regarding insulation. I stear many customers toward spray foam insulation, but have recently heard a lot of questions as to what the better product is, either closed cell or open cell. I had one customer that called me today that had received quotes on spray foam after my recomendation. He indicated that one of the contractors produced information pertaining to lawsuits against open cell foam and told him that he would spray which ever he prefered, but would make him sign a liability waiver if he chose open cell. Can someone please shed some light as to what the story is here? I think that any bad press relates to negatives for your industry as a whole. It is almost certain that by the time the game of "Telephone" is played the next person that this homeowner talks to is going to hear that there is lawsuits pending on spray foam period an they will stear clear of the product as a whole.
Craig Maturi Posted: Feb 13, 2008 07:38 PM	i am sure the lawsuits you speak of or heard of are about "ICENYNE" open cell because of there false advertising and marketing. they are giving foam a bad name in my area and making open cell foam a hard business, thank god i spray both. Do a engine search about it and you will find info. sorry to but in Mason but this subject hits a soft spot with me.
Thomas Kasper Posted: Feb 13, 2008 10:01 PM	It's sad SPF has only 5% of the insulation market (open and closed cell foam combined) and then we fight over it. We should be thinking about how to get that other 95% instead.
mason Posted: Feb 14, 2008 03:22 PM	I wrote an article on Learning the Difference Between 1/2 lb density and 2lb density SPF that you might find enlightening. Also wrote another article that was published in Construction Specifier on Designing with SPF that I addressed a few of the conflicting claims made in the foam advertising arena. You can access the first article on my website, masonknowles.com and the other from Construction Specifier. Also, check out an article I wrote for RSI magazine that also discusses the issue Separating SPF Fact from Fiction http://www.rsimag.com/rsi/Metal+Roofing/Separating-spray-foam-fact-from-fiction/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/449116
Eric Sparks Posted: Feb 15, 2008 06:58 PM	i searched but cannot find any info on the lawsuits could you please share more info on the subject.
Ryan Fesmire Posted: Feb 16, 2008 10:17 PM	The Soft spot for me is how people are always trying to bash Icynene. Any business in this world if they have been in business long enough are going to have crazy "sue happy" people who think they can get money from something. If you are mad because the Icynene dealer is taking business from you then say it. Otherwise, quit trying to bad mouth any foam. We all know that foam is better than any other insulation, whether it is closed cell the people want or open cell lets be glad it is foam. Personally, I spray both and fell like there are good scenarios for both products.
Dave Strnad Posted: Feb 17, 2008 09:55 AM	I also install both open and closed cell, and feel that either is better than anything else out there however each has certian advantages and disadvantages. As far as Icynene it is as good as any other 1/2 lb open cell foam(some would argue that it is better, the point is that it is 1/2 lb open cell foam). I can only speak for some of the local dealers in my area, but there are certain things that they consistantly tell people that is just plain wrong, which is bad for the foam business. I do not bash anybody, but I will set the customer straight if they are misinformed and I let the customer make up their own mind about why they were told that. Anyway like I said I can only speak for my tiny little piece of the world, but these are a few examples of what I hear. "It's not open cell, it's Icynene" "6" is all you need it has an effective R-value of R-38" (In my climate 6" is not enough and as far as I know thats closer to an R-19) "It's different from other foams it's polyicynene not polyurethane" Etc, etc. The theme is the same. Anyway not trying to start a debate here, just trying to shed some light why some people feel the way they do, and it may not be icynene's fault maybe it is just bad installers. It is not that I am losing jobs, in fact if any dealer, Icynene or not misinformed the customer, it may take me an extra hour of going over documentation to set the customer straight, but when we are done even if I still don't get the job I know for sure anyone who has misrepresented their product for sure will not get the job.
richard sucher II Posted: Feb 17, 2008 03:09 PM	It has been my experience that Icynene applicators have never been shy about promoting the "sizzle", not the "steak", of their product. Perhaps the six inch reference is because they are only rated to that thickness (see ICC-ES report NER 420). Their corporate promotions are, in some, cases not much better. Case in point, the comparison chart that website readers are taken to for info regarding several different types of insulation. There are many misleading items on this chart that could be cleaned up and noone would be worse for it. I do not understand, when foam has such a small percentage of the residential/commercial market that these types of tactics are reverted to - there is plenty of work to be had. Another front where misinformation has been rampant is in the area of the need for thermal barriers/ignition barriers over foam. Heaven only knows how many jobs are out there that have been installed incorrectly. Terms like "self extinguishing" and "non burning" surface every day. Can't tell you how many times I have had a customer tell me that they have seen the demo with the propane torch and a piece of open celled foam - they are actually told that the foam does not support combustion. As if this demo is representative of the conditions that exist in a real fire situation. Let's clean up our acts and promote the merits of the foam system.
richard sucher II Posted: Feb 17, 2008 03:09 PM	It has been my experience that Icynene applicators have never been shy about promoting the "sizzle", not the "steak", of their product. Perhaps the six inch reference is because they are only rated to that thickness (see ICC-ES report NER 420). Their corporate promotions are, in some, cases not much better. Case in point, the comparison chart that website readers are taken to for info regarding several different types of insulation. There are many misleading items on this chart that could be cleaned up and noone would be worse for it. I do not understand, when foam has such a small percentage of the residential/commercial market that these types of tactics are reverted to - there is plenty of work to be had. Another front where misinformation has been rampant is in the area of the need for thermal barriers/ignition barriers over foam. Heaven only knows how many jobs are out there that have been installed incorrectly. Terms like "self extinguishing" and "non burning" surface every day. Can't tell you how many times I have had a customer tell me that they have seen the demo with the propane torch and a piece of open celled foam - they are actually told that the foam does not support combustion. As if this demo is representative of the conditions that exist in a real fire situation. Let's clean up our acts and promote the merits of the foam system.
Eric Sparks Posted: Feb 18, 2008 04:11 PM	i was just interested on any info not just one company. my intrest is in protecting and educating myself on this subject.
mason Posted: Feb 18, 2008 09:28 PM	Sparky, Check out the articles that I have written on open and closed cell foam, designing with SPF and others. You can find a few on my website, masonknowles.com. Also at RSI Magazine online.

Author

Comments

Lars Andersen

Posted: Feb 13, 2008 12:58 PM

"Open cell and closed cell debate"

I am a heating manufacturer and make recomendations daily regarding insulation. I stear many customers toward spray foam insulation, but have recently heard a lot of questions as to what the better product is, either closed cell or open cell. I had one customer that called me today that had received quotes on spray foam after my recomendation. He indicated that one of the contractors produced information pertaining to lawsuits against open cell foam and told him that he would spray which ever he prefered, but would make him sign a liability waiver if he chose open cell. Can someone please shed some light as to what the story is here? I think that any bad press relates to negatives for your industry as a whole. It is almost certain that by the time the game of "Telephone" is played the next person that this homeowner talks to is going to hear that there is lawsuits pending on spray foam period an they will stear clear of the product as a whole.

Craig Maturi

Posted: Feb 13, 2008 07:38 PM

i am sure the lawsuits you speak of or heard of are about "ICENYNE" open cell because of there false advertising and marketing. they are giving foam a bad name in my area and making open cell foam a hard business, thank god i spray both. Do a engine search about it and you will find info. sorry to but in Mason but this subject hits a soft spot with me.

Thomas Kasper

Posted: Feb 13, 2008 10:01 PM

It's sad SPF has only 5% of the insulation market (open and closed cell foam combined) and then we fight over it. We should be thinking about how to get that other 95% instead.

mason

Posted: Feb 14, 2008 03:22 PM

I wrote an article on Learning the Difference Between 1/2 lb density and 2lb density SPF that you might find enlightening. Also wrote another article that was published in Construction Specifier on Designing with SPF that I addressed a few of the conflicting claims made in the foam advertising arena. You can access the first article on my website, masonknowles.com and the other from Construction Specifier.

Also, check out an article I wrote for RSI magazine that also discusses the issue Separating SPF Fact from Fiction
http://www.rsimag.com/rsi/Metal+Roofing/Separating-spray-foam-fact-from-fiction/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/449116

Eric Sparks

Posted: Feb 15, 2008 06:58 PM

i searched but cannot find any info on the lawsuits could you please share more info on the subject.

Ryan Fesmire

Posted: Feb 16, 2008 10:17 PM

The Soft spot for me is how people are always trying to bash Icynene. Any business in this world if they have been in business long enough are going to have crazy "sue happy" people who think they can get money from something. If you are mad because the Icynene dealer is taking business from you then say it. Otherwise, quit trying to bad mouth any foam. We all know that foam is better than any other insulation, whether it is closed cell the people want or open cell lets be glad it is foam. Personally, I spray both and fell like there are good scenarios for both products.

Dave Strnad

Posted: Feb 17, 2008 09:55 AM

I also install both open and closed cell, and feel that either is better than anything else out there however each has certian advantages and disadvantages. As far as Icynene it is as good as any other 1/2 lb open cell foam(some would argue that it is better, the point is that it is 1/2 lb open cell foam). I can only speak for some of the local dealers in my area, but there are certain things that they consistantly tell people that is just plain wrong, which is bad for the foam business. I do not bash anybody, but I will set the customer straight if they are misinformed and I let the customer make up their own mind about why they were told that. Anyway like I said I can only speak for my tiny little piece of the world, but these are a few examples of what I hear.

"It's not open cell, it's Icynene"
"6" is all you need it has an effective R-value of R-38" (In my climate 6" is not enough and as far as I know thats closer to an R-19)
"It's different from other foams it's polyicynene not polyurethane"
Etc, etc. The theme is the same. Anyway not trying to start a debate here, just trying to shed some light why some people feel the way they do, and it may not be icynene's fault maybe it is just bad installers. It is not that I am losing jobs, in fact if any dealer, Icynene or not misinformed the customer, it may take me an extra hour of going over documentation to set the customer straight, but when we are done even if I still don't get the job I know for sure anyone who has misrepresented their product for sure will not get the job.

richard sucher II

Posted: Feb 17, 2008 03:09 PM

It has been my experience that Icynene applicators have never been shy about promoting the "sizzle", not the "steak", of their product. Perhaps the six inch reference is because they are only rated to that thickness (see ICC-ES report NER 420). Their corporate promotions are, in some, cases not much better. Case in point, the comparison chart that website readers are taken to for info regarding several different types of insulation. There are many misleading items on this chart that could be cleaned up and noone would be worse for it. I do not understand, when foam has such a small percentage of the residential/commercial market that these types of tactics are reverted to - there is plenty of work to be had.
Another front where misinformation has been rampant is in the area of the need for thermal barriers/ignition barriers over foam. Heaven only knows how many jobs are out there that have been installed incorrectly. Terms like "self extinguishing" and "non burning" surface every day. Can't tell you how many times I have had a customer tell me that they have seen the demo with the propane torch and a piece of open celled foam - they are actually told that the foam does not support combustion. As if this demo is representative of the conditions that exist in a real fire situation.
Let's clean up our acts and promote the merits of the foam system.

richard sucher II

Posted: Feb 17, 2008 03:09 PM

Eric Sparks

Posted: Feb 18, 2008 04:11 PM

i was just interested on any info not just one company. my intrest is in protecting and educating myself on this subject.

mason

Posted: Feb 18, 2008 09:28 PM

Sparky,

Check out the articles that I have written on open and closed cell foam, designing with SPF and others. You can find a few on my website, masonknowles.com. Also at RSI Magazine online.

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