Q&A Forums

open vs closed cell Post New Topic | Post Reply

Author	Comments
Terry Adams Posted: Jan 27, 2011 09:07 PM	open vs closed cell I sprayed 6" of open cell between the 1st and 2nd floor(new construction) for sound abatement and now have to re-spray because the plumbing on the second floor had a slow leak that did not appear for weeks. It was under a sink and was only discovered because of wood flooring warping in the bedroom. Water seeped down the plumbing penetrations and wet 400sqft of foam but never dripped a drop on the sheetrock ceiling below. Imagine what might happen if you wrap over the rafters with open cell then add IC coating and get a leak in the roof. Anybody tested or experienced this scenario?
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Jan 27, 2011 09:56 PM	Now, let's imagine if it was closed cell and you sprayed the entire underside of the roof deck! Now, that would be worse! At least the open cell would ultimately show itself and allow for you or another contractor to address the issue. I'm surprised at the amount of square footage this covered without dripping through the wood rafters? It seems like we're missing some of the factors involved to understand it completely? Thanks, Jim
SprayFoamSupply.com Posted: Jan 27, 2011 09:58 PM	I am surprised that the water did not leak down onto the drywall below. How much of the ceiling foam was wet? It couldn't have wet all 400ft. Was there poly over the foam? George
Terry Adams Posted: Jan 27, 2011 10:07 PM	The area sprayed between floors is appx 2000 to 2500 sq ft. 400 sq ft was the amount of wet foam removed. Foam was applied to underside floor, no poly used. If the foam leaked like the open cell only contractors say, the damage would have been less. Don't get me wrong I spray both and we all know OC at the same rvalues as CC will make you more money.
Terry Adams Posted: Jan 27, 2011 10:26 PM	Cabinets and sinks along the wall on the second floor, the floor had a slight slop to the back of the cabinets and found plumbing , wiring penetrations and seams in the floors. Plumbing company is paying for the repairs. It happened , just wondered if anyone has seen a OC roof leak show its self like its being touted to do.
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Jan 29, 2011 07:34 PM	I for one have seen it show itself for a leaky roof. And it did't go as far as 400sqft even on the sloped underside of the roof which I expect to be worse than a flat ceiling. On top of that, I can't fore see it ruining the subfloor or roofing substrate. The only thing I can see as happening in your situation is the water was carried by the back of the cabinet across the floor and it could have been blocked by the floor covering and penetrated in many different locations. Otherwise, I don't know why this wouldn't penetrate and show itself on the back side of the drywall. Can you explain the parameters in your situation in more detail? Thanks, Jim
mason Posted: Jan 30, 2011 08:57 AM	I missed this post earlier and did not get a chance to comment on it. I agree with Jim that we need more details to comment on it. I can't see water being absorbed into the open cell foam and it not dripping in a shorter time frame. Was it just reported after 2 weeks and not observed earlier because no one checked in the attic? Was there something the water dripped on that prevented it from contacting the attic floor? A note about closed cell foam. If the foam was properly installed and on ratio, it would not absorb water, so any water that got past the shingles and the flashing would be isolated in a very small area reducing the potential damage to wood roof decks. We have found that the closed cell foam reduces the number of leaks from the roofing membrane by sealing the gaps and crevices around roof penetrations so the water stays above the roof deck or in a very small area.
philip mullins Posted: Jan 31, 2011 06:33 PM	im gonna agree with mason about how the cc foam works and that it doesnt absorb the water. gonna disagree with him saying we need more info. only read terrys statement once and saw that he wasnt talking about an attic situation. pretty simple, plumbing leaked and the oc sopped it up like a sponge. no surprise there. i dont live in the fantasy world of bs that too many foamers live in where they said it so its true. it basic science, on an elementary level even. people dont buy foam cause they hear so much bs from so many "professionals" that it all sounds like bs! like terry, i spray both oc and cc. some times i will grab a chunk of oc and use it to soak up the resin that spills on top of the drum when i consolidate, so i know it absorbs. but the skin on oc sheds water... not as simple as 1+1, more like 15+15.
philip mullins Posted: Jan 31, 2011 06:44 PM	and i know not to spray oc in a crawl space cause it will absorb moisture and hold it against the wood floor and cause it to warp. in nola now ripping that ****** out from under a house to spray the 2 inches of cc that shoulda been sprayed in the first place. seems the "professional" did at least 5 houses on this one street that way. i found a new niche market for this slow economy... fixing these "professionals" screw ups at the expense of honest hard working american home owners, aka... victims
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Feb 02, 2011 07:12 AM	Mason, We're atlking about open cell foam absorbing water in a floor after a plumbing leak. Not a roof, but he did ask what about a roof? TroutKiller, I can tell by your tone that you don't like open cell. I too absorb up some of my spilled resin and other products with it, I also use fiberglass/cellulose to absorb up some of this mess. Just because it can absorb water doesn't mean we shouldn't use it. We need to understand the conditions under which to use it and what the limitations are for it. I don't understand what you mean by the crawlspaces and the water drive into the foam? Was this sprayed to the underside of the floor? If so, we don't do that and we'll typically spray the outside edges of the walls and coat the floor with a vapor retardant insulation (Low-E). So, we've never had any issue with the way we've been doing crawlspaces and moisture absorbtion. So, we need some more details on your situation to explain. Is this a vented crawlspace? What area of the country? Underside of the floor? How Thick? What product was used for the open cell? Need some answers to be abel to identify what happened! Thanks, Jim
mason Posted: Feb 02, 2011 10:38 AM	Jim, Thanks for the correction on the attic vs mid floor application. However, my opinion remains the same, waterfrom the pipe leak would have been absorbed into the open cell foam but then some should have leaked out of the foam and shown up on the ceiling of the floor below it However, there are lots of different brands of open cell foam and some of them have a wide variety of physical properties. For example, I know of a brand that is almost like a flexible foam and others that are much more friable. I presume that some brands may hold more water than others based on their cell structure. I have not performed water absorption tests on the various foams. Anyone out there done some side by side tests?
philip mullins Posted: Feb 03, 2011 12:03 PM	i like lazy rainy days. i also like open cell foam. great product, and i make more $ spraying it than i do with closed cell. dont like the oc guy telling mr jones that if u get a roof leak with cc ur roof is gonna rot but if u get one with oc it will drip straight thrue and reveal itself and all will be groovy. truth is it may, or it may stay in the foam against ur roof decking till it rots it away or gets so heavy it falls!the latter being the most unlikely, but possible. depends on the size of the leak, rate of infiltration, climate, temp, etc... so many variables and possibilities that i believe it has more to do with luck than science. open cell vs closed cell? well mrs. jones, they are both great products. and when installed properly they both work equally well and are the best product u can get, as far as insulation goes. the closed cell adds strength and water resistance. but, open cell is about 30% cheaper. mrs jones- hey philip, i spoke to joe foam and he said that cc will rot my roof! and so and so said that oc sucks cause... bla bla bla. then bubba fome said he will spray whatever, wherever, for $3k less than you! im so confused! mrs jones just got fiberglass boyz! or bubba screwed up her house! now i have a question. wich of these scenarios is good for the foam industry? so... mrs jones is setting in her house one rainy day watching tv, basic cable, cant afford any movie channels cause her electric bill is so high! when suddenly water dripd down and ruines her 3d hd sony big screen, shorts out the wiring, f's up all kinds of sh!t. see, when she built her house she hired fence hopper roofing co. cause they were so much cheaper than white boy roofing and from here live here roofing. now, who does she blaim? sony? the person who decorated and put the tv in that spot? or should she blame the leak and the resulting damage on the roofer? a properly installed roof shouldnt leak. but unfortunately, leaks do happen. and i do NOT have a product that i can spray up there that will turn a pain in the ass roof leak into a good thing. and never EVER spray or have open cell foam sprayed in a crawl space. period! no matter the climate or geographical location. and barring rare circumstances, its a BAD IDEA!
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Feb 05, 2011 08:07 AM	So, I guess that we're just "Lucky" that you're her with us today? Right? Well, I don't believe in LUCK, except "Living Under Christ's Knowledge". I beleive that all things were created and design to work in a scientific manor. Otherwise, how does you body process food the way it does? You tell a pretty good story above, but what are the facts? You didn't answer my questions asked in the previous post? I don't understand what you mean by the crawlspaces and the water drive into the foam? Was this sprayed to the underside of the floor?Is this a vented crawlspace? What area of the country? Underside of the floor? How Thick? What product was used for the open cell? Need some answers to be abel to identify what happened! Thanks, Jim