slow-rise SPF in closed cavity | Ask Mason Knowles - SPF Consultant | Spray Foam Technical Questions and Answers | SprayFoam Magazine Q&A Forums

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Posted: Jan 21, 2008 10:39 AM	slow-rise SPF in closed cavity I have numerous requests to insulate older homes with SPF, which requires "retrofitting" foam into closed-cavity walls and ceilings. Do you have any experience with this? I assume I need to use a very slow-rise foam that will not expand so fast as to blow the sheetrock off the walls. thanks.-Peter
mason Posted: Jan 21, 2008 01:10 PM	Yes, There are special formulas of SPF that are called "froth" foams. They typically have another blowing agent injected into one of the sides to pre-expand the foam before it goes into the wall. Ask you material supplier for a system that works for your application. Do not under any circumstances try to use an "off the shelf" system. The expansion of the foam can blow the gypsum or plaster right off the wall.
Posted: Jan 21, 2008 06:45 PM	Thanks Mason. Can you suggest some suppliers that sell "froth foams"? Also, can I use a Graco E10 proportioner with "froth" or is there a different machine/ method to get the stuff in the walls? -Peter
mason Posted: Jan 22, 2008 09:42 AM	Most of your major SPF manufacturers have a froth type product (such as NCFI, BASF/PFE, Icynene, Demilec, Dow Chemical, Bay Systems and many others.) Ask your supplier first if they have a system that works for you. As for equipment, it would be dependent on the system. For example, some systems require that the additional blowing agent be injected into the B side with a small proportioner pump that attaches to you existing equipment. Others require a pressurized bottle system specific to the type of foam and some may be installed with your existing equipment. The systems may be both low-density and medium density.
Posted: Jan 22, 2008 02:16 PM	thanks, Mason! In researching this on the web and in various forums such as SprayFoamMagazine.com I am not finding much reference to "froth foam", and distributors are not pushing it. I have yet to try your suggestion on the maufacturers, but I am surprised that with all of the older homes in the nation, that more attention isn't focused on an SPF solution for what looks like a huge market. It makes me wonder if SPF is perhaps not viable in older homes/ closed-cavity installation. I'll keep poking and let you know what I find out.-Peter
mason Posted: Jan 22, 2008 08:16 PM	The froth foams are more commonly used in OEM in-plant applications. The systems have been around for more than 30 years, but you would need to talk to the manufacturers to get technical details.
Posted: Jan 23, 2008 10:52 AM	Will do. Thanks. Mason Peter
R C Posted: Mar 06, 2008 03:04 PM	Could it be because it is just too expensive for the average homeowner to do. The retrofit expense is just too great compared to other methods. In terms of "bang for your buck" foam is very expensive to retrofit. At least in my area, the homes that would benefit the most could not afford it. That is just my 2 cents...
richard sucher II Posted: Mar 06, 2008 04:20 PM	We install NCFI "Sealite" and we are not hearing them promote their product for this application. However, the Icynene applicator in our area has several jobs listed on his website that show this retrofit application. It is my understanding that Icynene has a foam product specifically designed for closed cavity retrofit. Check it out.
Darren Gomez Posted: Mar 12, 2008 01:55 AM	Is this "froth" foam the same as "pour foam" or slow rise foam?
mason Posted: Mar 12, 2008 07:24 AM	No a froth foam has been specially designed with a second blowing agent introduced to the foam to reduce the expansion and heat reaction profile of the rising foam.

Author

Comments

Posted: Jan 21, 2008 10:39 AM

slow-rise SPF in closed cavity

I have numerous requests to insulate older homes with SPF, which requires "retrofitting" foam into closed-cavity walls and ceilings. Do you have any experience with this? I assume I need to use a very slow-rise foam that will not expand so fast as to blow the sheetrock off the walls.
thanks.-Peter

mason

Posted: Jan 21, 2008 01:10 PM

Yes,

There are special formulas of SPF that are called "froth" foams. They typically have another blowing agent injected into one of the sides to pre-expand the foam before it goes into the wall. Ask you material supplier for a system that works for your application.

Do not under any circumstances try to use an "off the shelf" system. The expansion of the foam can blow the gypsum or plaster right off the wall.

Posted: Jan 21, 2008 06:45 PM

Thanks Mason. Can you suggest some suppliers that sell "froth foams"? Also, can I use a Graco E10 proportioner with "froth" or is there a different machine/ method to get the stuff in the walls?
-Peter

mason

Posted: Jan 22, 2008 09:42 AM

Most of your major SPF manufacturers have a froth type product (such as NCFI, BASF/PFE, Icynene, Demilec, Dow Chemical, Bay Systems and many others.) Ask your supplier first if they have a system that works for you.

As for equipment, it would be dependent on the system. For example, some systems require that the additional blowing agent be injected into the B side with a small proportioner pump that attaches to you existing equipment. Others require a pressurized bottle system specific to the type of foam and some may be installed with your existing equipment.

The systems may be both low-density and medium density.

Posted: Jan 22, 2008 02:16 PM

thanks, Mason!

In researching this on the web and in various forums such as SprayFoamMagazine.com I am not finding much reference to "froth foam", and distributors are not pushing it. I have yet to try your suggestion on the maufacturers, but I am surprised that with all of the older homes in the nation, that more attention isn't focused on an SPF solution for what looks like a huge market. It makes me wonder if SPF is perhaps not viable in older homes/ closed-cavity installation. I'll keep poking and let you know what I find out.-Peter

mason

Posted: Jan 22, 2008 08:16 PM

The froth foams are more commonly used in OEM in-plant applications. The systems have been around for more than 30 years, but you would need to talk to the manufacturers to get technical details.

Posted: Jan 23, 2008 10:52 AM

Will do.
Thanks. Mason
Peter

R C

Posted: Mar 06, 2008 03:04 PM

Could it be because it is just too expensive for the average homeowner to do. The retrofit expense is just too great compared to other methods. In terms of "bang for your buck" foam is very expensive to retrofit. At least in my area, the homes that would benefit the most could not afford it.

That is just my 2 cents...

richard sucher II

Posted: Mar 06, 2008 04:20 PM

We install NCFI "Sealite" and we are not hearing them promote their product for this application. However, the Icynene applicator in our area has several jobs listed on his website that show this retrofit application. It is my understanding that Icynene has a foam product specifically designed for closed cavity retrofit. Check it out.

Darren Gomez

Posted: Mar 12, 2008 01:55 AM

Is this "froth" foam the same as "pour foam" or slow rise foam?

mason

Posted: Mar 12, 2008 07:24 AM

No a froth foam has been specially designed with a second blowing agent introduced to the foam to reduce the expansion and heat reaction profile of the rising foam.

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