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Posted: Oct 03, 2010 07:27 AM	SPFA in the recent past,,i was honored to be voted by the spfa membership to a board of directors position of the newly added "contractor" board memeber position.. it seems the spfa is looking for more contractor input,,and by golly,,i think they may mean it.. i hope to be able to represent us,,you know,,the contractors out there in the field,,,big guys,,little guys,,,hillbillys,,,newbees,,,the works,,,keep in mind i am an interior only type of hillbilly,,and the roofing industry is well represented on the board,,so i may not be appropriate for "roofing technical suggestions" but i will do the best for you roofers as well,,your opinion is important and matters... it is my intention to post questions here for you as they swirl amongst the gray matter in my head,,,and to solicit thoughts and recomendations from you as well... obviously i can not make any guarantees that yours/my ideas or suggestions will be considered..but contractor input they wanted,,and contractor input they shall get... i aint scared... but serious folks,,,this is about YOU!!! and i need your help to be an effective member,,,if we dont participate our industrys trade organization will be directed with little real contractor input.... ...now as a disclaimer,,i am a small hillbiilly foamer from eastern iowa,,out chasing my tail tryin to eek out a living,,and this is priority three for me,,,(number one is to luv my wife and stay married,,lol,,and to be involved with my children and their children,,with some time left over to putt on the hog,,number two is to keep my business profitable) i vow to give as much to this position as time allow..lol,, and remember... MEMBERSHIP MATTERS!! we are only as strong as our general membership and its working members.. while i will listen to members and non-members as well,,,"you cant get milk unless you own a cow" kinda thing,,go figure.. i do not intend to be your complaint department,,proactive,,,real ideas,,,real questions,,,positive suggestions,,,heck even negative asessment will work,,suggestions that are feasible would be even better.. thanx again to all spfa members who voted for me for this position.. i hope to be able to provide you with the representation you deserve... i am honored to be on your professional trade organization's board.. respectfully mark moyer foamdude midwest poly-solutions iowa city, iowa i would prefer correspondence would be via this forum or via email...the phone rings enough,,and i like to have written documentation as to what is being asked of me,, and the spfa as well,, so i can make reference back and so i can try and stay on course... foamdude@midwestpoly.com otta work just fine... gonna give this post a little bit of time to settle in and then we will start our first topic: membership...put on your thinking caps... this is not an application/equipement/technique forum..they already exist,,,most questions have already been discussed(use the search engine!) and i am just a hillbilly learning my way as well
Doug Commette Posted: Oct 03, 2010 11:09 AM	mark: Congratulations on being elected to the SPFA BOD! I am confident you will serve us all well. Doug Commette SprayFoamMagazine.com
Blair Marsden Posted: Oct 05, 2010 03:32 PM	I am new to the board and always look forward to your insights foamdude, thanks a ton!!.....carry on!! Any pheasants out there?
Posted: Oct 05, 2010 04:27 PM	Congratulations Mark/dude I joined a few years ago when sprayfoam became my main income instead of just a hobby. SPFA has helped me out in La quite a bit. Steve
Posted: Oct 20, 2010 06:05 AM	so lets try a few questions,, looking for input/dialoge re: membership: to members: why did you join?? has your membership been a good "value to you"?? why or why not... what service has OUR trade organazation afforded you or your company that you find important?? what could the spfa be doing better for you or your company...or for the industry as a whole?? lets give this a run,,,help me here boyz n girlz.. lets give the spfa idea's/opinions/perceptions from the trenchs,,cause its in the trenches the war is fought... non-members,,,feel free to chime in if you got itchy fingers,,,but that will be the next post or two depending on how dialoge goes... i wanted to learn to do spray foam and everything i thought i could learn at home to be the best at what i do has filled my nites with mindless goo how do i do this?? or how do that?? and what about big brother in his shiney new hard hat?? where should i go?? how to proceed??,,, to make this more than just earnin my feed... did anyone think about "this or that"... does anyone care how i feel about that?? i want a voice in my lively hood,, i want to be heard,,,, without "feely goods" so speak up now 4 the stuffed shirts prevail and make this occupation a living hell... burma shave
quentin Posted: Oct 25, 2010 08:41 AM	I joined but saw no real benifits from it and the cost was a fair amount for someone starting out and is a one man show. It seems the ABAA would be more of a benifit since that is what they keep demanding for certifications and etc on the bigger jobs which kills us. Also how it is constnatly specified they want this brand and that brand with all the certifications from the ABAA which is a joke. The SPFA was zero help to get around this. Also I tried several times to get help from them in dealing with the local contractors for government work on base and they were no help. So for $500 a year you get what from them as a contractor? A piece of paper and bragging ability that no one cares about isn't much for your money when it can be used for advertising instead which WILL get you customers.
Posted: Nov 03, 2010 03:39 PM	Congrats Mark! We had been members for several years and with no real benefits realized, we let our membership expire. Maybe things will be different now and maybe we will reconsider renewing our membership. Good luck to you. And PS...you write lovely poetry :) Tammy
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Nov 03, 2010 06:49 PM	Mark / Dude! Glad to hear that you got elected. I have yet to hear that I haven't been elected and that was months ago that we voted!! I don't know if they were ever going to tell me or just let it go and hope I didn't ask! That's one thing I wish more of from the SPFA. More communication both ways!!! I have complained many times to Kurt only to realize that my complaining fell on what appeared to be deaf ears! Well, It seem that my vote for you didn't but not sure about where I stand in the election process. So, I too had been a member and let my membership lapse because I saw no benefit to being a member. Then they claimed they were going to change that. Well, here I ma a year later and I haven't seen any changes. Actualy, I see it as possibly worse with them coddling OSHA, NIOSH and the EPA! I get the impression they are saying "YES" to everything being said and "OK" just to put it behind them. Well, that's killing us as the contractors in the field! We can't stand the regulatory agencies sticking their noses in where it doesn't belong in the first place. They have shown us that they cannot interpret even a few test results let along a mutlitude of testing results and their interpretation. That would take someone of some knowledge and experience. So, I too have been a member, let it lapse and then became a member again to get involved. But now they didn't seem to want that so, I guess I may just have to let it lapse again!I see no benefit from the membership other than brag'n rights and a piece of paper that says I'm a member. I don't see them sticking up for us as wall or roof (underside) insulation foamers. So heres my opinion if it helps! Thanks and Congrats! Jim
Pedro Sunoco Posted: Nov 03, 2010 06:50 PM	Mark: Congrats but sorry. SPFA does nothing for us or the industry. Whoever replaced mason is a complete moron and has no experience in this industry. Where are you going with that? We have been gathering / talking to many contractors and most of us are not going to the show either, as there is never anything new. Thanks for all YOUR help on this website, though. We have learned alot from you as we begin doing wall jobs.
Posted: Nov 04, 2010 06:46 AM	ahh,,, a warm fuzzy,,, :)~ dialoge is a beautiful thing.. thanx for the posts.. this is what i am looking for,,, real dialoge i can take to the spfa. what the workin stiffy is feelin and thinkin.. ok,,so we see a resounding "no real value",,theme,,, what "values" would you desire?? what do you want out of YOUR trade organization?? what dont you want out of your trade org?? my list is long,, but this is about you... member or not...even better if not.. nuff for now,, gotta go squirt some juice(spf,,duh),, dude And it's a fair wind, blowin' warm, Out of the south over my shoulder, Guess I'll set a course and go... david crosby
quentin Posted: Nov 04, 2010 09:23 PM	Ahhh, they FINALLY let actual people working to help them. I wonder why it took so long? At least we have a good one on it! 1) A set of standards of training meaning that being trained by one company doesn't mean you need trained by EVERY company. Certified SPF installer instead of certified installed of x-brand only. 2) Kick the stupid ABAA in the rear or make sure that the constant demands I am seeing for ABAA certifications out the wazoo are countered since it is just being used as a way to make sure company XYZ from thousands of miles away get the work leaving good local companies SOL. 3) Kick these manufactures in the butt to remind them that unless we can sell it to spray, then all those materials will sit in a warehouse and rot. Don't just sell US on their products since we know SPF is the best out there, sell the PUBLIC on it to help get more demand. We can spray it if we have enough people wanting it. 4) Drop the price for small guys to join and more will. $100 a year for those with only 5 or 10 people or just single sprayers like me is a lot easier to justify than $500. 5) Work with the insurance industry to help them understand what we do exactly so they are not trying to hammer us thinking it is a much higher risk than it is causing high premiums. How is that for a starter?
Posted: Nov 06, 2010 06:14 AM	rooferfoam,,, "where will i go with that"?? i plan on sharein the input with them... visions of pie graphs dance in my head,,, what services should an industry trade organization provide?? dude
Dean Nash Posted: Nov 06, 2010 10:16 AM	Random thoughts: "they whom pay/contribute the most have the most influence"-stands to reason that a manufacturer can/does have more voting power than the applicators and yet the applicator is the one who is most often left out to hang. Balance the power somehow. Too many thoughts to type-email or call me for more. "Tax-like": reduce the cost and the "inferred intrusion" for membership and more will join. Repeat of what someone else said. Merge the "governors". Too many certifications by too many manufacturer based companies. Merge them into a singular entity governed equally by a board comprised of applicators, suppliers, code enforcement(honorary member?), fire marshal(honorary member?), and manufacturers. Create a republic, not a democracy based on donation. Sorry for the political comparison but from afar, that is how it appears. 0.02 worth Joe IME
mason Posted: Nov 06, 2010 10:55 AM	Some background on SPFA and its Bylaws and organizational structure. In 2003, the Management Committee of SPFA voted to leave the American Chemisty Council and become an independent trade group. I was tasked to incorporate the new organization and develop the By Laws and and Articles of Incorporation. I was instructed to stay as close to the original organizational structure as possible. The results are as follows: There is a Board of Directors made up of supplier and contractor members. The contractor members outnumber the supplier members by at least one person. The President and Vice President are required to be contractor members, The Treasure/Secretary can be either a contractor or supplier member. The Board of Directors is responsible for making policy decisions, hiring staff and long term planning. An Executive Committee comprised of the President, immediate past President, Vice President and Treasurer make policy decision and short term planning decisions between Board of Directors meetings. (subject to the approval of the Board at their meetings) The paid staff consists of the Executive Director and his staff who is charged with carrying out the policies of the Board and reports directly to the President of the Associaton. A good point was made about dues and how much of SPFA's budget is financed by suppliers over the contractors. A supplier pays a certain amount of dues based on their sales related to the SPF business as does the contractor member. However, the contractor member's dues are capped at around $3500 whereas the supplier's dues are not capped. This creates a situaton where even the most afluent contractor pays only around $3500 where a small supplier might pay more than $5000. The very large suppliers pay 10 to 15 times that amount. So, there is that tendency to pay more attention to the suppliers that pay a significant amount of the budget. One way I tried to reduce this reliance on the suppliers was to make the annual sprayfoam conference a profit center. When I came to the trade group, the conference was a break even event. By 2003, the conference was netting close to 35% of our annual budget. I presume this continues today. In conclusion, the organization is set up so that the contractor has the main organizational power but the dues structure favors supplier influence. The only way I see to reduce the supplier influence would be to develop additonal profit centers that reduce the amount of the budget the supplier contributes. One such center would be Accreditation. For example, when I present an SPF Accreditation course, $50 for each student goes to SPFA. Over the last 2 years, the classes I have taught have added more than $15,000 to the SPFA coffers. By the way, it is not too late to register for the classes in Atlanta starting Monday, Nov 8. . The classes are the Fundamentals of SPF, SPF roofing, roofing fundamentals such as wind, drainage, fasteners, deck assemblies, flashing,etc. and SPF building envelope. Cost is $995 for the week or $275 per class. email me at masonknowles@aol.com to register Good luck Foamdude and don't hesistate to call me on any SPFA issue.
Posted: Nov 08, 2010 06:58 AM	thanks mason.. your experience is priceless,, thanks for the offer for help with "how the system works"... you will be a valuable asset to this dialoge... still trying to build the list... "what do "I" want from the spfa" "what do they do well" "what should they do better" "where should my dues go" "what should my dues be" "feed em fish" what ever the case may be.. ,,round here we call it word-vomit... just let er rip,,, you will feel good,,, dude ;)~
Doug Commette Posted: Nov 08, 2010 08:05 AM	Why doesn't SPFA work in alliance with SprayFoamMagazine.com? Think what an alliance with SprayFoamMagazine.com could for SPFA? Think of all the benefits SprayFoamMagazine.com could do for THE CONTRACTOR, business listings, national ad campaigns, use of 2000 websites, training and certification marketing... Think what SF.com could do for SPFA membership if we jointly promoted it...
quentin Posted: Nov 08, 2010 08:14 PM	Good points! I was thinking about this earlier today and I actually stopped going to the SPFA site since it didn't really update much and the layout was a major pain to try and deal with. Usually I would find the exact same information faster and easier right here. SF.com is more useful, better layed out, more up to date and a lot better investmant for our few advertising and other dollars than the SPFA. Go get em Dude and remind them that moeny is tight for EVERYONE right now so unless they provide a good bang for that buck, it really isn't going to move us. We already have a higher operating cost and materials cost than the other products we have people trying to compare us to now, every dime is important in getting and keeping the jobs that pay the bills now.
Pedro Sunoco Posted: Nov 10, 2010 11:07 PM	dude how about preventing entry for contractors in this business w/o training certs. why does a builder need a license in most states but foam contractor can screw his way into crappy work, low balled prices, and unsafe spraying? this site will list any body with a buck to get on it. almost every contractor I checked with on the site tells me their phones ring off the hook with work, but what is to separate the good contractors from the bad? I cant even spell acreditadation - another thought in the right direction by spfa, but a total lack of ability to attain the training and the necessary credentials in a quick, but challenging format. they tellme it takes years to get (the word again) acredited beacuase there are never any other classes. you do a great job with your forum and your site, (i have learned a ton) and even send customers here - but maybe you could list what contractors have the training and which dont? i see supplier logos like lapola an demilec in the contractor lists - so why dont you add the spfa, abba, sspc training levels too? then evryone can play, but the buyers can use your site even better? wish I could by you a beer at the show, but my little group and most others aint going anymore to watch the good ol boys who run the joint stay in $5000/night presidential rooms while we all suffer. you and your website should take over this industry and maybe we got something to lokk forward to and work toward. keep trying, we'll follow YOU anywhere. coler, mason, the fire guy forum your great too. figures the spfa wants nothin to do you with you. still need to keep my motto in first post. one of my suppliers told me they were breaking up spfa cause its so bad. is this true? got to go, another long f-in day day tomorrow
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Nov 14, 2010 10:29 AM	SPFA needs more contractor input. Carvelli, SprayFoamMagazine.com is much more valuable to me as a contractor than SPFA. There should be a rule that every SPFA officer spray two sets of foam each year by themselves. Preferably a crawl space. have fun, `oG
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Nov 14, 2010 10:33 AM	`Dude, SPFA SHOULD HAVE SCREAMED "FOUL" at the monopoly market that Graco created. They should have formally presented a complaint to the FTC. Their impotence in this matter allowed Graco to create an unfair and anti-competitive business climate. g
quentin Posted: Nov 14, 2010 10:40 AM	LOL, I love that idea Olger! Most of the spraying we do is crawlspaces anymore and they are a pain in the rear. Once the non-contractor members see just how much we all work for what little money we get they may suddenly decide there is a reason we are sick of dealing with them.
mason Posted: Nov 14, 2010 06:48 PM	I still crawl around in attics, either to do inspections or to provide on the job training. Last one was in Vermont working with a repair crew for 2 days. That one was easy, the attic was large. But, the worst one was in Florida inspecting an domed attic. The trusses were in the shape of a wheel and there was only 1 ft between the spokes. I had to crawl over, under and around to inspect the job and the attic was over 120 degrees. Took me 4 hours and I was completely worn out and dehydrated at the end of it. I should have charged more.
Posted: Nov 15, 2010 06:16 AM	...imagine crawling thru there spraying.... and can you do it cheap??? lots of good points/observations/recomendations being put out here,,, i intend on "sharing" this info verbadum with the spfa folks if they want to hear it. i do not intend to edit or editorialize this info,,it will be presented as is with all dailoge included..it is your opinion,,you are the contractors,, if you have a problem with me sharing your posts or your post name,,for example,,,let me know and i will put on my creativity and come up with something that will provide you your annonimity.. not sure if you peeps want dialoge here on the thread regarding your questions or observations.. to me,,,from beyond your own self it becomes opinions,,right,,wrong,,or somewhere in between.. but man the dialoge could be torrid.. dude
Gerald Baldwin Posted: Nov 30, 2010 10:12 AM	First time post- The debate over the value of an organization to represent our industry has been brought to my attention. We are a longtime spray foam applicator, (1978) and are a tradional contractor, (roofing) There have been several times in the past that if we wouldn't have had strong representation the industry wouldn't have survived. I attended meetings of the SPFA board for over 2 years as an observer and now I am a newly elected board member. Everyone on the board and the employees of the group sincerely want OUR industry to prosper in this intense competitive and reglatory environment. It isn't as easy as just switching alligiance to another group to work with. The connections and footwork that has been done by all groups in our industry are better off being used together instead of against each other. Lets work on issues that will enhance our market share and reputation. Thanks.
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Jan 07, 2011 07:47 AM	Dude' Iagree with the other comments and add a few more to my last list. How about sticking up for us - the applicators - against the EPA, OSHA, NIOSH, and any other government entity who tries to tell us what's safe and not based on a couple of bogus tests! How about them going against the FTC R-value rule and fighting for us against the fibergalss industry? Is there no value is measuring convective or radiant heat loss? What about thermal mass? How about adding a standard which will measure TRUE thermal performance via conductive, convective, radinat heat transfer with a thermal mass????? Should they be working with ASTM, or other standards organizations to come up with a TRULY fair and equivalent thermal resistance test??? Get some common sense and do the fire testing right! A modified NFPA 286 test is still modified and not "end use configuration" as required by the code! Anyone with common sense knows that fiberglass melts in a fire aloowing the fire to pass by and burn the structural members, but it's still considered non-combustible. So, what is the real test and what should everyone be upheld to? The attic and Crawlspace test is stil wrong and they need to defend that position!!! Another thing, quit trying to defend their current position on everythig based on history! We don't live in the past and won't in the future! Just a couple of more thoughts I'd add in to the mix. Thanks, and good luck! Jim
Posted: Feb 07, 2011 05:33 AM	jim,, since you have chosen to make this personal,, i have never chosen to defend anyone,,, cept myself get a life (i edited out the azzhole part so as not to pizz you off)
philip mullins Posted: Feb 09, 2011 02:10 AM	(i edited out the azzhole part so as not to pizz you off) thats damn fine politics rite there! jim, lucky for you im here (get it?) to point out that maybe anyone who wants to make suggestions on how the spfa should be run should should first learn what a crawl space is! (i edited out the spfa is a con part so as not to pizz anyone off)
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Feb 10, 2011 09:57 AM	Dude, I didn't mean it to be personal and I don't mind being called an a$$hole on occasion when I'm being one. I meant to direct my comments to the SPFA and not to you personally. I know your in this fighting for us -the spray foam contractors and God Speed in doing so! I commend yur ability and willingness to tone down some of our comments and make them paletable for some fo the other SPFA guys. I think that's why they didn't want me on there too, but that's another side issue. So, keep up the defense and jet them have it as politically correct as possible. They were just a couple of additional comments towards the entire SPFA. Thanks and no offense taken! Jim