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Les shadle Posted: Jan 01, 2008 06:09 PM	Starting a business Just wondering if you guys have any suggestions, prices I should charge, money I need to start a business. Do you guys have alot of business? Are people using cellulose because it is cheaper? Any help you can give me would be appreciated? How far does a barrel of product go?
Gary Galloway Posted: Jan 01, 2008 09:26 PM	As far as price about 45 cents a board foot for 0.5 lb open cell and $1.10 for 1.7 lb closed cell seems to be the average in most places. To get started you need at least 60K to invest in good equipment. You can buy cheap setups for 30 to 35K but you will waste a lot of time as the small units have problems making enough heat in cold weather. They will work but you will lose an hour or more of trigger time everyday while you recirculate material to get it warm enough to process. Also avoid systems with portable gasoline generators and air compressors. They are setup to get you in the business and after a few jobs you discover you need much better equipment and you get to start over with what you needed for an extra 50K or so. Be aware of the need for an ignition barrier in attics and crawl spaces. A lot of people are installing foam without the ignition barrier which will open them up to all kinds of lawsuits if they do not have the barrier in a home and the house burns. Insurance companies have lots of lawyers and will do everything they can to get out of paying a claim including suing you if they think you did something wrong. As foam insulation is a relatively new product in many markets many inspectors are not inforcing the requirement of the inginiton barrier. Many people are using cellulose and fiberglass because it is much cheaper than foam. 3 out of 5 jobs I quote disappear when the contractor/customer sees the price as they tend to only be concerned with what the upfront cost are not what the savings will be in utilities. As one contractor here has put it I build the house as cheap as possible to maximize profit. I don't care about the savings on the utility bill because I will not be paying the utility bills and the purchaser only cares about the best price for the new house. In short most of the foam insulation business comes from people that have there homes custom built to the specifications they want. With foam being 2 to 3 time more expensive than fiberglass you have to find people that willing to spend some extra money upfront to get the savings on the backend. The yield of a barrel set depends on the type of foam and the spraying conditions. The colder the air temperature is the less yield you will get. If the equipment is not heating the product enough or pressures are too low the yield will decrease. If your material has been in storage for a couple of months instead of being newly produced yeilds tend to be lower. There are many things that effect how much foam you will get from a barrel set. Foam insulation is a good business but it requires lots of hard physical work and is not for everyone. I know a painter that thought he could do foam. After all it is sprayed like paint he said. Six months later he went back to being a painter as there is a lot more to foam than just working the spraygun. You are always dealing with code officials. There are all kinds of things you cannot spray and those things differ in different areas. Can lights are always a problem. Providing combustion air to furnaces, hotwater heaters, and fireplaces often becomes a problem. The HVAC system has to have an outside air source as well which often requires a ventation control system be added future adding to the upfront cost of foam insulation. There are also health issues for the person appling the foam. Many people are sensitive to the ISO used to make the foam when in is in liquid or vapor form. The chemicals in the ISO side of most foams are highly toxic until the foam sets after being sprayed. You will hear sprayers talk about the halo effect they experience from breathing too many fumes during spraying. The fumes can also be very irritating to the eyes. I am not tring to discourage you from going into the foam business but you need to do it with your eyes open to what it is all about.
Posted: Jan 02, 2008 08:32 PM	what gdg said,,,except... ..halo effect is manifested on the eyes...hence the term "halo"...as you see rings like halos around lights and bright objects,,,it is a temporary condition with no lasting untoward effects(this according to what literature i could find on it,,but honestly you got to wonder about repeated exposure)...it is not at all respiratory,,,although the respiratory hazards are real...and should not be taken lightly...
Todd Baxter Posted: Jan 14, 2008 04:21 PM	so, how do most of you feel about your business this year?? will it stay about the same or do you think it will grow. the reason I am asking is I would like to start my foam business, but if it is a bad year for most I will hold off for untill it starts to pick up.
Rob Granger Posted: Jan 14, 2008 09:49 PM	I am still spraying in New York, in January. I believe the success of your business has much to do with how well you can sell... Selling foam and selling against your competition... Can you close the deal?? If you want to be succesful in this business then sign up for some sales courses or get some sales books/tapes and put some time into studying. It has helped my proposal to close(job) ratio.
Todd Baxter Posted: Jan 16, 2008 08:40 AM	that I know I have been in roofing for several years, and the first of the year is allways slow, my question is the foam side of he business, do you get a lot of calls about foam. what about builders can they keep you busy??
philip mullins Posted: Jan 18, 2008 12:04 AM	i have been up and running for about a year now. so i can tell ya what its like to be a rookie in this buisness, if that helps. in order... prices? the numbers i usualy hear arent what i am seeing around here. if you charge too much you wont get work. if you work too cheap just to be working youll end up screwed when machines break or the unexpected happens. and youll evaporate. or maybe work realy hard and sustaine ur buisness just long enough to realy screw up the industry in ur area. then evaporate. expenses? oh yeaahhh! its expensive production? i would call it so-so. overall, i dont think the industry in this country, right now, is what i would call consistant. although, if you look around you will find several guys who are booked up. but i havent seen any overnight success stories. its not that kind of gig. a lot of the boom in this industry has to do with the number of guys getting into this buisness right now. market share? right now i think like 5-8 percent of new constructions have spf. that number is set to increase drasticaly over the next several years. by some accounts to as high as 50 percent. and i believe it will unless something better comes along. but its up to the installers to get it there. suppliers, builders, politicians, they are just the ______'s making all the money. spf will get into the mainstream on the backs of the installers. advice? obviosly, reed this forum. even the realy long boring post. a lot of good info here. and do your research. there is a lot to learn before your ready to spend any money. past that i would advise you that this is a very technical buisness that requires a lot of maintnence and repair. but if you work hard and be smart you may make a decent living for your efforts. and finaly, the hose! nobody warned me about the hose. i named mine zena. cause she will whip your... yeild? that is not a general question. do ur research. good luck.
Todd Baxter Posted: Jan 18, 2008 06:11 PM	thanks, I have been reading this forum for amost a year now, I just am not sure if I start now or if I wait, to get started. I will be talking to builders o see what thier take is on foam before I start.

Author

Comments

Les shadle

Posted: Jan 01, 2008 06:09 PM

Starting a business

Just wondering if you guys have any suggestions, prices I should charge, money I need to start a business. Do you guys have alot of business? Are people using cellulose because it is cheaper? Any help you can give me would be appreciated? How far does a barrel of product go?

Gary Galloway

Posted: Jan 01, 2008 09:26 PM

As far as price about 45 cents a board foot for 0.5 lb open cell and $1.10 for 1.7 lb closed cell seems to be the average in most places. To get started you need at least 60K to invest in good equipment. You can buy cheap setups for 30 to 35K but you will waste a lot of time as the small units have problems making enough heat in cold weather. They will work but you will lose an hour or more of trigger time everyday while you recirculate material to get it warm enough to process. Also avoid systems with portable gasoline generators and air compressors. They are setup to get you in the business and after a few jobs you discover you need much better equipment and you get to start over with what you needed for an extra 50K or so. Be aware of the need for an ignition barrier in attics and crawl spaces. A lot of people are installing foam without the ignition barrier which will open them up to all kinds of lawsuits if they do not have the barrier in a home and the house burns. Insurance companies have lots of lawyers and will do everything they can to get out of paying a claim including suing you if they think you did something wrong. As foam insulation is a relatively new product in many markets many inspectors are not inforcing the requirement of the inginiton barrier. Many people are using cellulose and fiberglass because it is much cheaper than foam. 3 out of 5 jobs I quote disappear when the contractor/customer sees the price as they tend to only be concerned with what the upfront cost are not what the savings will be in utilities. As one contractor here has put it I build the house as cheap as possible to maximize profit. I don't care about the savings on the utility bill because I will not be paying the utility bills and the purchaser only cares about the best price for the new house. In short most of the foam insulation business comes from people that have there homes custom built to the specifications they want. With foam being 2 to 3 time more expensive than fiberglass you have to find people that willing to spend some extra money upfront to get the savings on the backend. The yield of a barrel set depends on the type of foam and the spraying conditions. The colder the air temperature is the less yield you will get. If the equipment is not heating the product enough or pressures are too low the yield will decrease. If your material has been in storage for a couple of months instead of being newly produced yeilds tend to be lower. There are many things that effect how much foam you will get from a barrel set. Foam insulation is a good business but it requires lots of hard physical work and is not for everyone. I know a painter that thought he could do foam. After all it is sprayed like paint he said. Six months later he went back to being a painter as there is a lot more to foam than just working the spraygun. You are always dealing with code officials. There are all kinds of things you cannot spray and those things differ in different areas. Can lights are always a problem. Providing combustion air to furnaces, hotwater heaters, and fireplaces often becomes a problem. The HVAC system has to have an outside air source as well which often requires a ventation control system be added future adding to the upfront cost of foam insulation. There are also health issues for the person appling the foam. Many people are sensitive to the ISO used to make the foam when in is in liquid or vapor form. The chemicals in the ISO side of most foams are highly toxic until the foam sets after being sprayed. You will hear sprayers talk about the halo effect they experience from breathing too many fumes during spraying. The fumes can also be very irritating to the eyes. I am not tring to discourage you from going into the foam business but you need to do it with your eyes open to what it is all about.

Posted: Jan 02, 2008 08:32 PM

what gdg said,,,except...
..halo effect is manifested on the eyes...hence the term "halo"...as you see rings like halos around lights and bright objects,,,it is a temporary condition with no lasting untoward effects(this according to what literature i could find on it,,but honestly you got to wonder about repeated exposure)...it is not at all respiratory,,,although the respiratory hazards are real...and should not be taken lightly...

Todd Baxter

Posted: Jan 14, 2008 04:21 PM

so, how do most of you feel about your business this year?? will it stay about the same or do you think it will grow. the reason I am asking is I would like to start my foam business, but if it is a bad year for most I will hold off for untill it starts to pick up.

Rob Granger

Posted: Jan 14, 2008 09:49 PM

I am still spraying in New York, in January. I believe the success of your business has much to do with how well you can sell... Selling foam and selling against your competition... Can you close the deal?? If you want to be succesful in this business then sign up for some sales courses or get some sales books/tapes and put some time into studying. It has helped my proposal to close(job) ratio.

Todd Baxter

Posted: Jan 16, 2008 08:40 AM

that I know I have been in roofing for several years, and the first of the year is allways slow, my question is the foam side of he business, do you get a lot of calls about foam. what about builders can they keep you busy??

philip mullins

Posted: Jan 18, 2008 12:04 AM

i have been up and running for about a year now. so i can tell ya what its like to be a rookie in this buisness, if that helps. in order...

prices? the numbers i usualy hear arent what i am seeing around here. if you charge too much you wont get work. if you work too cheap just to be working youll end up screwed when machines break or the unexpected happens. and youll evaporate. or maybe work realy hard and sustaine ur buisness just long enough to realy screw up the industry in ur area. then evaporate.

expenses? oh yeaahhh! its expensive

production? i would call it so-so. overall, i dont think the industry in this country, right now, is what i would call consistant. although, if you look around you will find several guys who are booked up. but i havent seen any overnight success stories. its not that kind of gig. a lot of the boom in this industry has to do with the number of guys getting into this buisness right now.

market share? right now i think like 5-8 percent of new constructions have spf. that number is set to increase drasticaly over the next several years. by some accounts to as high as 50 percent. and i believe it will unless something better comes along. but its up to the installers to get it there. suppliers, builders, politicians, they are just the ______'s making all the money. spf will get into the mainstream on the backs of the installers.

advice? obviosly, reed this forum. even the realy long boring post. a lot of good info here. and do your research. there is a lot to learn before your ready to spend any money. past that i would advise you that this is a very technical buisness that requires a lot of maintnence and repair. but if you work hard and be smart you may make a decent living for your efforts. and finaly, the hose! nobody warned me about the hose. i named mine zena. cause she will whip your...

yeild? that is not a general question. do ur research.

good luck.

Todd Baxter

Posted: Jan 18, 2008 06:11 PM

thanks, I have been reading this forum for amost a year now, I just am not sure if I start now or if I wait, to get started. I will be talking to builders o see what thier take is on foam before I start.

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