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mason Posted: May 15, 2007 03:25 PM	Welcome to the forum Welcome to Ask Mason Knowles. During my 12 years with the Spray Polyurethane Foam Alliance, I was the main technical resource for the association and answered thousands of questions about SPF. Now, I can provide these same services to SprayFoamMagazine.com subscribers. So start it up. Let me know what questions you have. Note: The opinions expressed on this forum are offered in good faith and are believed to be true but are made without warranty, either expressed or implied, as to fitness, merchantability, or any other matter. Mason Knowles disclaims all liability for any loss or damage arising out of use of these opinions. Some topics maybe too detailed or require additional research to answer in this forum and would be better addressed through my consulting business, Mason Knowles Consulting.
Posted: May 15, 2007 05:06 PM	hey mason,,good to see you on the board.. your knowledge and enthusiasm will be an asset for all... (are you still with the spfa?...inquirering minds need to know....) WELCOME WELCOME WELCOME!!! and did i say WELCOME!
Gerry Wagoner Posted: May 15, 2007 11:03 PM	Hi Mason: I `ave a serious question. Has your fast draw improved since Tucscon? But seriously folks: Are there any good blowing agents on the horizon that DON'T BOIL at 59°??? How does the FTC feel about the monopoly that the EP-dumb-A created with 245fa? What are the driving forces that caused a sustained 45% price increase in the spray foam materials, and how can they be justified? I submit that that increase has softened the wave of enthusiasm for SPF that was about to crest in 2004. There is still interest, of course, but we put a sword in the hands of Cellulose marketeers. If fiberglass had sustained a 45% increase in cost what would have happened to their market? Devastating... Are there any U.S. renovations of the R-value standard on the horizon? (As per England). Is anything being done about the egregious claims that a certain half-pound foam company continues to make? Do we need a mascot in the industry? - one that rivals the Pink Panther? Taz, maybe? An elephant to step on the panther? Let's do it. warm regards, olger
SprayFoamSupply.com Posted: May 16, 2007 06:04 AM	Hi Mason, Welcome to the forum. Olger, I have some answers for you, not to all, but some. Water! 245 will need to be phased out in 2030 anyway. http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html ?? Probably higher profits to encourage rising shareholder value. Fiberglass is so cheap to begin with, would the average Joe have even noticed? There should be. Again, there should be. I asked a freind of mine about doing a cartoon with that very idea, and he didn't think it was such a good idea, as mr pink has more money to spend on sueing me than I have to spend defending myself! George
mason Posted: May 16, 2007 08:48 AM	Olger, Nope the fast draw is still slow but deadly accurate. EPA has approved quite a few blowing agents besides HFC 245fa including; Exsol (hydrocarbon blowing agent, reguires explosion proof equipment), Ecomate (HFC from Arkema, can be used in SPF applications but not aware of any manufacturers currently using it), carbon dioxide, (water, currently being used), HFC 134a (high vapor pressure typically used as a third stream in manufacturing such as applicances), HCFC 22 (when used in combiniation with HFC 245 fa to replace HCFC 141 b in a blended system with HCFC 22) and formic acid. So, EPA avoids the monopoly tag. Check the details on this webpage. http://epa.gov/ozone/snap/foams/lists/index.html As for price increases, simply put, demand for raw materials particulary MDI and PMDI. China is buying huge quantities of MDI for OSB, paints, adhesives and other products. Fiberglass is also going up in price due to increase construction supply demand from Asia, as is concrete, plywood, OSB, steel, etc. Fiberglass is always going to much cheaper than fiberglass, it is up to our industry to sell the remarkable benefits of SPF. In order for fiberglass to work correctly, it requires an air barrier,vapor barrier, moisture barrier, additional structural strength,etc. You can sell to a higher end market that understands the differences. R-values; yes the building science community is working on new thermal performance metrics that take into account air infiltration, thermal bridging, and convection. There is a new test procedure being used at Architectural Testing Inc. that has been proposed to the ICC Evaluation Services for performance evaluation of assemblies using a guarded hot box with the capability of inducing air infiltration into the assembly. Our test results to date show SPF applications maintaining 85% to 120% efficiency at various temperatures with air pressure added (simulating a 15 mph wind). Joe Lstiburek is promoting a thermal index chart that would allow specifiers to easily plot the relative performance of assemblies when performanc data is generated. Other folks working on similar test programs include; U of Syracuse, Mark Bomberg, Oakridge National Labs, NAHB, SPFA, ABAA and many others. I am embarassed by our industry's food fight between open cell and closed cell foam. Both have factions that offer ridiculous claims, too numerous to outline here. Both can be used effectively when installed correctly and both outperform fiberglass. It is not smart to fight over 3-5% of the insulation market when you can join forces and take an additional 10-15% away from fiberglass. This fight reminds me of the acrylic and polyurethane coating wars of the 80s and the aggregate foam roof wars of the 90s. (Both are non issues today). This will also die off if we are smart, the more we fight, the more work goes to the competition. I like the idea of a trademark mascot. What other mascot ideas are out there?
philip mullins Posted: May 16, 2007 02:28 PM	according to Wyatt Earp, "slow in a hurry". thats what wins a gun fight! and after getting out my dictionary, i have to say that olger asked some good questions.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: May 16, 2007 10:49 PM	Hi Mason. I liked the part about 3-5% food fight. Spot on. It's time we joined forces - the UCSC gal made a good case for this on 2-9-05 in Orlando. I don't think we have begun to tap foam's potential. Same with polyurea. BASF's joint venture ISO plant should be operational...soon? Joe's a sharp dude. I sat in on a presentation by one of his affiliates (Dr. Nathan Yost). He was all about cellulose. I remember thinking "I would like to give one of these presentations, and tell it right." Somebody must have heard my thoughts.. A month ago I received an invitation from Dayton NARI to give a dinner presentation on "The Building Envelope." It is going to be good. I just received a fedex package from Neil Ganser, authorizing me to use a couple of his charts and the attendant data supporting them. The meeting is next Tuesday evening at the Dayton Holiday Inn Banquet Hall. Are you & Dudley working together? rejoice always, olger

Author

Comments

mason

Posted: May 15, 2007 03:25 PM

Welcome to the forum

Welcome to Ask Mason Knowles.

During my 12 years with the Spray Polyurethane Foam Alliance, I was the main technical resource for the association and answered thousands of questions about SPF. Now, I can provide these same services to SprayFoamMagazine.com subscribers.

So start it up. Let me know what questions you have.

Note: The opinions expressed on this forum are offered in good faith and are believed to be true but are made without warranty, either expressed or implied, as to fitness, merchantability, or any other matter. Mason Knowles disclaims all liability for any loss or damage arising out of use of these opinions.

Some topics maybe too detailed or require additional research to answer in this forum and would be better addressed through my consulting business, Mason Knowles Consulting.

Posted: May 15, 2007 05:06 PM

hey mason,,good to see you on the board..
your knowledge and enthusiasm will be an asset for all...
(are you still with the spfa?...inquirering minds need to know....)
WELCOME
WELCOME
WELCOME!!!
and did i say WELCOME!

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: May 15, 2007 11:03 PM

Hi Mason:

I `ave a serious question. Has your fast draw improved since Tucscon?

But seriously folks: Are there any good blowing agents on the horizon that DON'T BOIL at 59°???

How does the FTC feel about the monopoly that the EP-dumb-A created with 245fa?

What are the driving forces that caused a sustained 45% price increase in the spray foam materials, and how can they be justified? I submit that that increase has softened the wave of enthusiasm for SPF that was about to crest in 2004. There is still interest, of course, but we put a sword in the hands of Cellulose marketeers.

If fiberglass had sustained a 45% increase in cost what would have happened to their market? Devastating...

Are there any U.S. renovations of the R-value standard on the horizon? (As per England).

Is anything being done about the egregious claims that a certain half-pound foam company continues to make?

Do we need a mascot in the industry? - one that rivals the Pink Panther? Taz, maybe? An elephant to step on the panther? Let's do it.

warm regards,

olger

SprayFoamSupply.com

Posted: May 16, 2007 06:04 AM

Hi Mason,

Welcome to the forum.

Olger,

I have some answers for you, not to all, but some.

Water! 245 will need to be phased out in 2030 anyway. http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html

??

Probably higher profits to encourage rising shareholder value.

Fiberglass is so cheap to begin with, would the average Joe have even noticed?

There should be.

Again, there should be.

I asked a freind of mine about doing a cartoon with that very idea, and he didn't think it was such a good idea, as mr pink has more money to spend on sueing me than I have to spend defending myself!

George

mason

Posted: May 16, 2007 08:48 AM

Olger,

Nope the fast draw is still slow but deadly accurate.

EPA has approved quite a few blowing agents besides HFC 245fa including; Exsol (hydrocarbon blowing agent, reguires explosion proof equipment), Ecomate (HFC from Arkema, can be used in SPF applications but not aware of any manufacturers currently using it), carbon dioxide, (water, currently being used), HFC 134a (high vapor pressure typically used as a third stream in manufacturing such as applicances), HCFC 22 (when used in combiniation with HFC 245 fa to replace HCFC 141 b in a blended system with HCFC 22) and formic acid. So, EPA avoids the monopoly tag. Check the details on this webpage. http://epa.gov/ozone/snap/foams/lists/index.html

As for price increases, simply put, demand for raw materials particulary MDI and PMDI. China is buying huge quantities of MDI for OSB, paints, adhesives and other products. Fiberglass is also going up in price due to increase construction supply demand from Asia, as is concrete, plywood, OSB, steel, etc. Fiberglass is always going to much cheaper than fiberglass, it is up to our industry to sell the remarkable benefits of SPF. In order for fiberglass to work correctly, it requires an air barrier,vapor barrier, moisture barrier, additional structural strength,etc. You can sell to a higher end market that understands the differences.

R-values; yes the building science community is working on new thermal performance metrics that take into account air infiltration, thermal bridging, and convection. There is a new test procedure being used at Architectural Testing Inc. that has been proposed to the ICC Evaluation Services for performance evaluation of assemblies using a guarded hot box with the capability of inducing air infiltration into the assembly. Our test results to date show SPF applications maintaining 85% to 120% efficiency at various temperatures with air pressure added (simulating a 15 mph wind). Joe Lstiburek is promoting a thermal index chart that would allow specifiers to easily plot the relative performance of assemblies when performanc data is generated. Other folks working on similar test programs include; U of Syracuse, Mark Bomberg, Oakridge National Labs, NAHB, SPFA, ABAA and many others.

I am embarassed by our industry's food fight between open cell and closed cell foam. Both have factions that offer ridiculous claims, too numerous to outline here. Both can be used effectively when installed correctly and both outperform fiberglass. It is not smart to fight over 3-5% of the insulation market when you can join forces and take an additional 10-15% away from fiberglass. This fight reminds me of the acrylic and polyurethane coating wars of the 80s and the aggregate foam roof wars of the 90s. (Both are non issues today). This will also die off if we are smart, the more we fight, the more work goes to the competition.

I like the idea of a trademark mascot. What other mascot ideas are out there?

philip mullins

Posted: May 16, 2007 02:28 PM

according to Wyatt Earp, "slow in a hurry". thats what wins a gun fight!

and after getting out my dictionary, i have to say that olger asked some good questions.

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: May 16, 2007 10:49 PM

Hi Mason.

I liked the part about 3-5% food fight. Spot on. It's time we joined forces - the UCSC gal made a good case for this on 2-9-05 in Orlando.

I don't think we have begun to tap foam's potential. Same with polyurea.

BASF's joint venture ISO plant should be operational...soon?

Joe's a sharp dude. I sat in on a presentation by one of his affiliates (Dr. Nathan Yost). He was all about cellulose. I remember thinking "I would like to give one of these presentations, and tell it right."

Somebody must have heard my thoughts.. A month ago I received an invitation from Dayton NARI to give a dinner presentation on "The Building Envelope." It is going to be good. I just received a fedex package from Neil Ganser, authorizing me to use a couple of his charts and the attendant data supporting them. The meeting is next Tuesday evening at the Dayton Holiday Inn Banquet Hall.

Are you & Dudley working together?

rejoice always,

olger

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