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Gerry Wagoner Posted: Nov 16, 2010 12:46 PM	What alternatives to Graco are out there? Gama had a brief run until Graco killed them off. PMC.....?? What else are people using? `oG
Doug Commette Posted: Nov 16, 2010 02:29 PM	Hey guys here is a link to alternative manufacturers "on this site": https://sprayfoammagazine.com/cdps/minorcat.cfm?cid=32&ckid=199 (link is at left) Essentially they are 21st Century JMT and Polyurethane Machinery Corp. Both of these companies make good equipment and are alive and well. -Doug
Bill Hrynkiewicz Posted: Nov 16, 2010 04:06 PM	One excellent alternative to Graco is Polyurethane Machinery Corporation (Fomerly Gama Machinery USA). You can view the "Back to Basics" equipment offering on www.polymac-usa.com, contact one of our distributors or contact me direct billh@polymacusa.com. We welcome the opportunity to provide quality plural component equipment, Made in the USA to the foam industry.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Nov 16, 2010 04:23 PM	Sent you an email, Doug. g
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Nov 16, 2010 04:24 PM	Bill I have a brand new Gama 250H that I just bolted into a showpiece 32' trailer, and I am informed that the machine is already orphaned (before it is even used). Seriously ticked off here. Who's to say that PMC will be around in two years? In 2008 when I bought this machine we were told that Gama was here to stay. g
steven argus Posted: Nov 16, 2010 06:56 PM	We just bought an H25 for two main reasons. #1) I do believe Graco will be around for a while and #2) We get our service and support from Spray Foam Distributors of N.E. It's really very simple: George helps us make money.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Nov 17, 2010 08:56 AM	I agree, George is a good guy and I consider him a friend. As to Graco, if you want to pay Graco's confiscatory prices that is your right and I support it. I believe that what they have done to the foam industry since 2005 is damaging to the industry. Here's why. A fundamental building block of a healthy competitive industry is three major suppliers at a minimum. This produces the best blend of competency, innovation, and bargaining leverage of the consumer. By buying up the other two main suppliers (Gusmer and Glascraft), Graco has turned a favorable equipment climate into a horizontal monopoly (references: Porter, Milton Friedman; Goodwin, Nelson, Ackerman, & Weissskopf, Microeconomics). The effect on the foam industry has thus far been negative as we moved from a "healthy competition" climate into a monopolistic environment where a huge chunk of market power is surrendered to Graco. According to the well-regarded Ivey Business Journal, "The Rule of Three", "a market is best served when there are three major suppliers who make up 70-90% of the market". We had this peak efficiency in the foam industry prior to 2005. The rest of the market share was made up of market "specialists." This was healthy. Quoting from "Competitive markets and The Rule of Three" by Sheth & Sisodia: "Just as living organisms have a reasonably standard pattern of growth and development, so do competitive markets. Our research into approximately 200 industries has revealed that markets evolve in a highly predictable fashion, governed by the "Rule of Three." "Ultimately, the Rule of Three is about the search for the highest level of operating efficiency in a competitive market. Industries with four or more major players, as well as those with two or fewer, tend to be less efficient than those with three major players. The role of the government is to ensure that free market conditions do indeed prevail, to allow industry rationalization and consolidation to occur naturally, and to step in when an industry seeks to consolidate too far, i.e., to a level where fewer than three players control the lion's share. Enter Graco. To anyone who doubts that Graco's control over a large majority of the foam equipment industry is deliberate and harmful, I need only point to their efforts to exclude competition by suing PMC. This also triggered Gama's (PMC) suit against Spray Foam Polymers to keep them from supporting the 100 plus Gama machines that have already been sold to unsuspecting foam contractors. I am one of them. As the owner of 4-King pumps I had no beef with Graco, in fact I liked them until they began forming a monopoly in the foam equipment industry. I was happy to see Gama emerge as a much needed alternative to Graco, and supported them by buying a machine from them. Then the machine became obselete before we even used it. PMC has not offered to help. As a 27-year veteran in the foam industry, it is my hope that Graco's monopoly will be broken up by the open market, and that we as an industry will emerge better for it. Regards, Gerald C. Wagoner II
Posted: Nov 17, 2010 09:06 PM	PMC is Gamma. The machines were being made in Spain with some European parts. Now they are being made in NJ with US electronics. I bought a Gama 250 in November of 09 and my machine is still under warranty. If I have any troubles at all, I call Frank on his cell phone and he walks me through it if he can and or sends out the parts that day Fed Ex. I do like my orange Gama, sorry to see them go to another type now though!
quentin Posted: Nov 18, 2010 01:07 AM	Well put and researched olger. Where was the SPFA and all the regulators when this was going on? Heck, I even tried calling my reps to have them look in to it and try to block the purchase of Glascraft. I think the MMH was a great idea and just needed refined to be a better seller since it was mostly the high costs that were killing it. Maybe someone else will come out with a system allowing interchangable parts to create a custom machine you mount on the walls where you want. It would make it a lot easier to maintain and repair when needed if done right, allow upgrading as needed and in a slow manner as it could be afforded as well as freeing up space in a crampt trailer or truck. Hmmm, may have to start calling and pitching that one to some manufactures BESIDES Graco. BTW olger, I am working on a prototype item and may see if you and Lane are interested in testing and critiquing it for me. Just a minor tool but if it works right it can make things a lot easier than how we are doing it now. You up to play test dummy?
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Nov 18, 2010 08:15 AM	I helped design the MMH, with Ridley Watts and Steve Cinders. So naturally I would have a favorable opinion of it. :) Another great idea killed off by detached bureacracy. To BB, I know the institutional history of Gama/PMC but thanks for the reminder. Good luck when your warranty runs out on the orange machine and you have a board failure. There were roughly 100 orange machines sold in the US, and I heard some good things about them. Hate to see them killed by blue just when they were gaining momentum. Have fun, g
jimcoler I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs. I've expanded my knowledge into t Posted: Nov 18, 2010 08:58 AM	I've used Diimon spray foam. They seem to have some good ideas and appear to be in it for the long haul. The only issue is they stil lbuy/use Graco parts in some of their systems. So, we're back to the monopoly of Graco. Much of their back end type of systems are new and proprietary but seem like great systems. Jim
steven argus Posted: Nov 18, 2010 05:17 PM	I too was considering Diimon. But there seems to be a lawsuit looming between Foammax and Diimon. I talked to both and i don't know who to believe. So I looked eleswhere.
Melvin Chandler Posted: Nov 18, 2010 05:56 PM	Isn't that the same thing some of the major applicators are trying to do? If you take the biggest of the big national contractors, they are going to their suppliers and daring them to sell to some of the little guys. They've also dared other suppliers to try and get in the state specs. These guys are going to specifiers and giving them crazy certifications and approvals. Acronyms that the specifiers can't even identify. There is one guy who has the nerve to call you up and threaten you. I've invited him to my office to have a discussion but I've yet to see him. He went so far as to contact a well known leader of one of the industry associations and have them send a letter to an A/E telling them they are not in good standings with the Assoc. when they were in the process of renewing their membership that they had carried for many years. When you are the big dog in the market, I guess you can do what you want, how you want and when you want.
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Nov 18, 2010 07:11 PM	I like some of the things that Diimon is doing, Jim. As to ethics within our industry, we can only control ourselves. Be straightforward and honest - you will not regret it in the end. There will always be scoundrels as long as the human heart exists. courage, `oG
Linerman Posted: Nov 21, 2010 04:04 PM	So no one will be surprised by the 5% price increase across the board next year with Graco.....go blue. I sure miss the good ole days.
steven argus Posted: Nov 22, 2010 06:04 PM	All we have to do is just raise our prices, right? A big LOL!!
Gerry Wagoner Posted: Jan 16, 2011 06:32 PM	I am very happy to report that PMC swapped out our brand new Gama 250 for a new PMC classic.

Author

Comments

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Nov 16, 2010 12:46 PM

What alternatives to Graco are out there?

Gama had a brief run until Graco killed them off.
PMC.....??

What else are people using?

`oG

Doug Commette

Posted: Nov 16, 2010 02:29 PM

Hey guys here is a link to alternative manufacturers "on this site": https://sprayfoammagazine.com/cdps/minorcat.cfm?cid=32&ckid=199 (link is at left)

Essentially they are

21st Century JMT and Polyurethane Machinery Corp.

Both of these companies make good equipment and are alive and well. -Doug

Bill Hrynkiewicz

Posted: Nov 16, 2010 04:06 PM

One excellent alternative to Graco is Polyurethane Machinery Corporation (Fomerly Gama Machinery USA). You can view the "Back to Basics" equipment offering on www.polymac-usa.com, contact one of our distributors or contact me direct billh@polymacusa.com.
We welcome the opportunity to provide quality plural component equipment, Made in the USA to the foam industry.

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Nov 16, 2010 04:23 PM

Sent you an email, Doug.

g

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Nov 16, 2010 04:24 PM

Bill I have a brand new Gama 250H that I just bolted into a showpiece 32' trailer, and I am informed that the machine is already orphaned (before it is even used).

Seriously ticked off here.

Who's to say that PMC will be around in two years? In 2008 when I bought this machine we were told that Gama was here to stay.

g

steven argus

Posted: Nov 16, 2010 06:56 PM

We just bought an H25 for two main reasons. #1) I do believe Graco will be around for a while and #2) We get our service and support from Spray Foam Distributors of N.E. It's really very simple: George helps us make money.

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Nov 17, 2010 08:56 AM

I agree, George is a good guy and I consider him a friend.

As to Graco, if you want to pay Graco's confiscatory prices that is your right and I support it. I believe that what they have done to the foam industry since 2005 is damaging to the industry. Here's why.

A fundamental building block of a healthy competitive industry is three major suppliers at a minimum. This produces the best blend of competency, innovation, and bargaining leverage of the consumer. By buying up the other two main suppliers (Gusmer and Glascraft), Graco has turned a favorable equipment climate into a horizontal monopoly (references: Porter, Milton Friedman; Goodwin, Nelson, Ackerman, & Weissskopf, Microeconomics).

The effect on the foam industry has thus far been negative as we moved from a "healthy competition" climate into a monopolistic environment where a huge chunk of market power is surrendered to Graco.

According to the well-regarded Ivey Business Journal, "The Rule of Three", "a market is best served when there are three major suppliers who make up 70-90% of the market". We had this peak efficiency in the foam industry prior to 2005.

The rest of the market share was made up of market "specialists." This was healthy.

Quoting from "Competitive markets and The Rule of Three" by Sheth & Sisodia: "Just as living organisms have a reasonably standard pattern of growth and development, so do competitive markets. Our research into approximately 200 industries has revealed that markets evolve in a highly predictable fashion, governed by the "Rule of Three."
"Ultimately, the Rule of Three is about the search for the highest level of operating efficiency in a competitive market. Industries with four or more major players, as well as those with two or fewer, tend to be less efficient than those with three major players. The role of the government is to ensure that free market conditions do indeed prevail, to allow industry rationalization and consolidation to occur naturally, and to step in when an industry seeks to consolidate too far, i.e., to a level where fewer than three players control the lion's share. Enter Graco.

To anyone who doubts that Graco's control over a large majority of the foam equipment industry is deliberate and harmful, I need only point to their efforts to exclude competition by suing PMC. This also triggered Gama's (PMC) suit against Spray Foam Polymers to keep them from supporting the 100 plus Gama machines that have already been sold to unsuspecting foam contractors. I am one of them.

As the owner of 4-King pumps I had no beef with Graco, in fact I liked them until they began forming a monopoly in the foam equipment industry. I was happy to see Gama emerge as a much needed alternative to Graco, and supported them by buying a machine from them. Then the machine became obselete before we even used it. PMC has not offered to help.

As a 27-year veteran in the foam industry, it is my hope that Graco's monopoly will be broken up by the open market, and that we as an industry will emerge better for it.

Regards,

Gerald C. Wagoner II

Posted: Nov 17, 2010 09:06 PM

PMC is Gamma. The machines were being made in Spain with some European parts. Now they are being made in NJ with US electronics.

I bought a Gama 250 in November of 09 and my machine is still under warranty. If I have any troubles at all, I call Frank on his cell phone and he walks me through it if he can and or sends out the parts that day Fed Ex.

I do like my orange Gama, sorry to see them go to another type now though!

quentin

Posted: Nov 18, 2010 01:07 AM

Well put and researched olger. Where was the SPFA and all the regulators when this was going on? Heck, I even tried calling my reps to have them look in to it and try to block the purchase of Glascraft. I think the MMH was a great idea and just needed refined to be a better seller since it was mostly the high costs that were killing it.

Maybe someone else will come out with a system allowing interchangable parts to create a custom machine you mount on the walls where you want. It would make it a lot easier to maintain and repair when needed if done right, allow upgrading as needed and in a slow manner as it could be afforded as well as freeing up space in a crampt trailer or truck.

Hmmm, may have to start calling and pitching that one to some manufactures BESIDES Graco.

BTW olger, I am working on a prototype item and may see if you and Lane are interested in testing and critiquing it for me. Just a minor tool but if it works right it can make things a lot easier than how we are doing it now. You up to play test dummy?

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Nov 18, 2010 08:15 AM

I helped design the MMH, with Ridley Watts and Steve Cinders. So naturally I would have a favorable opinion of it. :)

Another great idea killed off by detached bureacracy.

To BB, I know the institutional history of Gama/PMC but thanks for the reminder. Good luck when your warranty runs out on the orange machine and you have a board failure. There were roughly 100 orange machines sold in the US, and I heard some good things about them. Hate to see them killed by blue just when they were gaining momentum.

Have fun,

g

jimcoler

I have over 10 years of experience specifying and installing open and closed cell spray foam. I've sold my business but I'm still selling for the new owners and consulting on large and custom specific jobs.

I've expanded my knowledge into t

Posted: Nov 18, 2010 08:58 AM

I've used Diimon spray foam. They seem to have some good ideas and appear to be in it for the long haul. The only issue is they stil lbuy/use Graco parts in some of their systems. So, we're back to the monopoly of Graco. Much of their back end type of systems are new and proprietary but seem like great systems.

Jim

steven argus

Posted: Nov 18, 2010 05:17 PM

I too was considering Diimon. But there seems to be a lawsuit looming between Foammax and Diimon. I talked to both and i don't know who to believe. So I looked eleswhere.

Melvin Chandler

Posted: Nov 18, 2010 05:56 PM

Isn't that the same thing some of the major applicators are trying to do? If you take the biggest of the big national contractors, they are going to their suppliers and daring them to sell to some of the little guys. They've also dared other suppliers to try and get in the state specs. These guys are going to specifiers and giving them crazy certifications and approvals. Acronyms that the specifiers can't even identify. There is one guy who has the nerve to call you up and threaten you. I've invited him to my office to have a discussion but I've yet to see him. He went so far as to contact a well known leader of one of the industry associations and have them send a letter to an A/E telling them they are not in good standings with the Assoc. when they were in the process of renewing their membership that they had carried for many years. When you are the big dog in the market, I guess you can do what you want, how you want and when you want.

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Nov 18, 2010 07:11 PM

I like some of the things that Diimon is doing, Jim.

As to ethics within our industry, we can only control ourselves. Be straightforward and honest - you will not regret it in the end. There will always be scoundrels as long as the human heart exists.

courage,

`oG

Linerman

Posted: Nov 21, 2010 04:04 PM

So no one will be surprised by the 5% price increase across the board next year with Graco.....go blue.

I sure miss the good ole days.

steven argus

Posted: Nov 22, 2010 06:04 PM

All we have to do is just raise our prices, right? A big LOL!!

Gerry Wagoner

Posted: Jan 16, 2011 06:32 PM

I am very happy to report that PMC swapped out our brand new Gama 250 for a new PMC classic.

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